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JoonieCloonie
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22 Jun 2014 04:21 |
and then there are the Ancestry trees ... (mundia site is down at present)
one has Mary, 1830 daughter of William and Penelope, as married to Robert Todd no marriage details
one has Mary, 1830 daughter of William and Penelope, as married to Thomas Mortimer 1834 which I think unlikely and the product of stupid Ancestry hints or something
wondering whether we might find that Gaius in 1861 under a stepfather's surname
oh aha, Mary Ann was 'Ann' in 1861
Name: Ann Todd [Ann Mortimar] Age: 28 Estimated birth year: 1833 Relation: Wife Spouse's Name: Robert Todd Mother's name: Penellope Mortimar Where born: Winchendon Nether, Buckinghamshire, England Civil Parish: Chearsley County/Island: Buckinghamshire Registration district: Aylesbury
Robert Todd 32 ag lab Ann Todd 28 William J Todd 6 Emily A Todd 4 Kate L Todd 1 Infant Todd 1/12 Penellope Mortimar 60 the same person has corrected her name
but is she really Mary Ann? no child in the household born c1849
Marriages Jun 1853 Mortimer Ann Aylesbury 3a 481 Todd Robert Aylesbury 3a 481
no, that was her sister Ann, finally found them in 1841
Name: Mary Mortimore Age: 10 Estimated birth year: abt 1831 Where born: Buckinghamshire, England Civil Parish: Chearsley Hundred: Ashendon Registration district: Aylesbury
William Mortimore 35 Cornepley Mortimore 35 > Mary Mortimore 10 > Ann Mortimore 8 Ette Mortimore 5 Henerey Mortimore 2
so that tree too is hogwash
so that's
no luck for 1861, 1881, 1901 C / CG in 1871, 1891 possible Gaius in 1851
in 1881, no luck as artist, painter, decor*
BUT we can rule out Gaius Mortimer, found him in 1891 with mother finally
Name: Gains Warner [Gaius Warner] (same person correcting again) Age: 40 Estimated birth year: abt 1851 Relation: Son Father's Name: John Warner Mother's name: Mary Warner Where born: Stoke Hammond, Buckinghamshire, England Civil Parish: Nether Winchendon Town: Nether Winchendon County/Island: Buckinghamshire Registration district: Aylesbury
Occupation: ag lab
John Warner 62 Mary Warner 61 Gains Warner 40 son widower Ellen Warner 28 daughter single Florence A Warner 14 grandchildren Horace S Warner 13 Francis W Warner 11 Alice Warner 6 Christopher Warner 3
Marriages Dec 1874 Warner Gaius Aylesbury 3a 823 Deaths Sep 1928 Warner Gaius 78 Newport P. 3a 872
the Male Mortimer birth is still a possibility ... but is probably Gaius
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JoonieCloonie
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22 Jun 2014 04:48 |
is there anything at all Egyptian looking about your Clifford ??
this household just seems possibly interesting
1851
Name: Clifford Mideana Age: 2 Estimated birth year: abt 1849 Relation: Son Father's Name: Hassan Mideana Mother's name: Anne Mideana Where born: Stepney, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Stepney County/Island: Middlesex Registration district: Stepney
Hassan Mideana 35 born Alexandria Egypt, house painter Anne Mideana 30 Fredk Mideana 9 Alfred Mideana 5 Clifford Mideana 2 Mary Somerhalder 66 totally bad transcription, entry scratched up, possibly Somerscales?
1861 same address
Hassan All (it's Ali) Medina 46 house painter Elizabeth Medina 40 Clifford Edmund Medina 12 Sater Slade 20
I can't find a birth for a Clifford Ed* at all or a marriage but it's hard to know what names to look for
there are no BMD records for a Clifford Medina
family search shows Hassan Ali Medina on the 1890 and 1891 electoral registers, his death reg 1894 shows dob c1813
oh here we are
Births Dec 1848 MIDENA Edmund Clifford Stepney 2 528
I'm just thinking ... someone might have anglicised his name ...
there is no marriage or death for Edmund or Clifford, Midena or Medina
brother Alfred proceeded under that name ... and had sons so there should be YDNA descendants for comparison :-D
1891
Alfred E Medina 45 Susannah Medina 46 Edward Medina 11 Henry Medina 9 George Medina 7 Ellen Edwards 44 + older son Alfred Hassan Medina in 1871 and 81 censuses
in 1871 Alfred was a Clothier and Furniture Dealer, and in 1901 and 1911 he was a House Furnisher ...
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Allan
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22 Jun 2014 10:40 |
JC,
Many thanks for the further info. :-)
I have decided to go back to basics and work from the facts we know. Adelaide was shown in the 1901 census as a servant, living in Broughton, Salford.
In 1904, she married Clifford in Blackpool.
How did they meet?
Was he somehow related to her employers, who were shown as Farmers?
In 1911, Clifford and Adelaide were shown as residing in Manchester
After 1911 two of their children's births were registered in the Stockport Registration District (1912 and 1913)
My father's birth was registered in 1915, in Broughton!
Full Circle :-(
If, as I surmise, Clifford was either a set director, or from some of his work a theatre painter that could explain the Blackpool connection(?), but the rest??
The YDNA test is becoming increasingly more attractive :-)
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JoonieCloonie
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22 Jun 2014 13:58 |
Alan I may have included too much extraneous material as I went along ... as you can see it was a bit of a process that I got a little carried away with time-wise (it was late late at night, I had had to stay awake at first to medicate a very sick cat, then I just kept going ...)
what I was proposing comes down to
________________________________________________________
1871
Name: C G Mortimer Age: 22 Estimated birth year: abt 1849 Relation: Lodger Where born: Buckinghamshire, England ('Buckingham') Civil Parish: Bury Town: Bury County/Island: Lancashire Registration district: Bury
OCCUPATION: SCENIC ARTIST with addition THEATRE [something]
________________________________________________________
1891
Name: C Mortimer Age: 43 Estimated birth year: abt 1848 Relation: Visitor Where born: London, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Reigate Town: Reigate County/Island: Surrey Registration district: Reigate
Occupation: DECORATOR
Alfred Hooker 42 gardener born Dorking Surrey Harriett A Hooker 46 born Horsham Sussex Alfred Hy Hooker 15 Florence M Hooker 13 Albert J Hooker 11 C Mortimer 43
________________________________________________________
do you really not think this is very likely your Clifford ???
I can't imagine how you would ever determine how your Clifford and Adelaide met or how he might have been connected with her employers unless I suppose you found him, somehow connected with them ... but that depends on finding him!
but one thing those censuses do show is a connection with Lancashire ... that 'C' was in Bury in 1871
unfortunately he was a visitor in Surrey in 1891 but his place of birth that year is given as London, same as for your Clifford in 1911
your Clifford was 'Decorative Artist (Theatre and Cinema)' on his death certificate and 'Painter Artist' in the 1911 census
you don't think 'Scenic Artist' (Theatre) and 'Decorator' are about as close as one can get to those? :-)
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JoonieCloonie
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22 Jun 2014 15:21 |
this family is such a good match for the facts of 'C Mortimer'
the couple (possible parents) married in London in 1853 i.e. after his birth
his true father could well have been a coach trimmer ... given that the possible mother Jane Raine was a servant to a baronet in 1851 (was the baronet in London just before that and was she a servant in the household there?)
father Joseph was in Bury in 1861 (mother Jane and children of the marriage were in Leicestershire working for a big house where Joseph's father also worked), family was in Lancashire in 1871
but where would 'C' have been in 1851/1861 and what would his name have been at birth?
_______________________________________________________
1871 in Rusholme Lancashire
Joseph Mortimer 47 provisions dealer born Oakley Bedfordshire Jane Mortimer 50 born Yorkshire Sarah Ann Mortimer 16 William Mortimer 13 Sarah Wearmouth 16
_______________________________________________________
1861 in Bury Lancashire
Joseph Mortimer, married, 23, boarder, born London, house joiner(?)
1861 in Skeffington Leicestershire, living at 'Dog Kennels' attached to Skeffington Hall, household of Richard Shotton(?), High Sheriff etc.
Thomas Mortimer 67 born Bedfordshire, house servant, Elizabeth Mortimer 27 housekeeper Sarah A Mortimer 6 grandchildren William Mortimer 3
and Jane Mortimer 1821 Yorkshire, married, a servant at Skeffington Hall (on same census page)
_______________________________________________________
1851 St Geo Hanover Square London
Joseph Mortimer aged 24 unmarried, born Oakley Bedfordshire, servant to a gentleman
1851 Quorndon, Leicestershire
Jane Raine aged 30 unmarried, born Romaldkirk Yorkshire (Rumblehrwk per Ancestry), servant housekeeper to a Baronet
(1841 she was in Lunedale, Romald Kirk, female servant to a farmer)
Marriages Jun 1853 Mortimer Joseph St Geo Han Sq 1a 355 Raine Jane St.Geo.H.Sq 1a 355
1891 in Rushulme Lancashire
Robert Borroughs 39 born Rushulme, C Joiner Sarah Ann Borroughs 36 born London Jane Mortimer 70 mother in law born Yorkshire Mary Raine 21 cousin born Yorkshire Nora Jane Raine 6 cousin born Cumberland (1885 Penrith)
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JoonieCloonie
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22 Jun 2014 18:17 |
now this is a bit of an interesting character who could possibly be son of Jane Raine
and here I am wandering off into speculation even farther
>>> it's the 1871/1891 'C Mortimer' I am mostly proposing you consider
_______________________________________________________
Births Sep 1848 POOLE Clifford Austin St Geo. Han Sq. 1 38
Marriages Dec 1877 Poole Clifford Austin St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 763 to Mary Frances Donagan or Emma Louisa Treadaway (born 1856 Westminster who almost certainly married William Fielder, see 1891 census, and died 1914) - no apparent death of Mary Frances as Poole or Pool pre 1902
Marriages Mar 1902 Poole Clifford Austin Southwark 1d 26 to Louisa Hopcraft (see 1911 census below?) or Rose Richardson (one of them married Thomas Samuel Watts) edit - I think Richardson married Watts: Rosina (1883 Walworth) and Thomas (1884 Southwark, see birth of Thomas Samuel Watts 1884 Southwark) in Newington St Mary in 1911 with child 6. - so Clifford Austin Poole married Louisa Hopcraft ...
with no apparent death of Clifford Poole or Pool
_______________________________________________________
no sign of him in censuses except probably 1851 and 1861
1851 Name: Clifford Poole Age: 2 Estimated birth year: abt 1849 Relation: Visitor Where born: Gt La, Middlesex, England - I think it says Mddx Geo Sqre Civil Parish: Newington County/Island: Surrey Registration district: Newington William Carter 66 receiving clerk retired?? Francis Carter 51 Clifford Poole 2
1861 Name: Clifford Poole Age: 13 Estimated birth year: 1848 Relation: Boarder, nurse child seems to have been scratched out Where born: Oxford, London, England Civil Parish: Newington St Mary County/Island: Surrey Registration district: Newington Frances Carter, 61, widow, seamstress, born Kent
nothing more in censuses but there are the two marriages ...
_______________________________________________________
possibly interestingly
Births Jun 1890 Pool Charles Austin Chorlton 8c 923
1911
Name: Charles A Pool Age in 1911: 20 Estimated birth year: abt 1891 Relation to Head: Son Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England Civil Parish: North Manchester County/Island: Lancashire Street address: 23 Petworth St Cheetham Manchester Marital Status: Single Occupation: Clerk Shipping Office Registration district: Prestwich
Louisa Pool 55 widowed born Lytham, Lancashire Daisy Pool 13 born Macclesfield Cheshire, no matching birth Charles A Pool 20 Annie Graham 17 servant Thomas Dillon 41 boarder born Clare, Ireland
cannot find him/them in 1891 or 1901
Deaths Jun 1957 POOL Charles A 67 Oldham 10f 60
edit, found that household in 1891
Name: Charles E Pool Age: 42 Estimated birth year: abt 1849 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Mary L Pool Where born: Tooting, Surrey, England - see Sep 1847 Wandsworth Civil Parish: Moss Side County/Island: Lancashire Registration district: Chorlton Occupation: Cashier to Cotton [?] Manufacturer Charles E Pool 42 Mary L Pool 56 born Lytham Lancs - Mary Louisa Baron marriage 1889 Prescot Charles C Pool 10/12 born Manchester Elizabeth Davis 21
so that young Charles Austin Pool (household in 1911) is not connected with the Clifford Austin Poole born in St Geo Han Sqre in 1848 or the Clifford Austin Poole marriages in 1877 and 1902, and his mother was not Louisa Hopcraft.
One more down ...
_______________________________________________________
still looking for C/CG Mortimer the decorator/scenic artist (1871 and 1891) in 1881 and 1901 and in 1851 and 1861 if he is not the Clifford Poole nurse child shown above, which I tend to think he is
and still almost 100% convinced that C/CG Mortimer the decorator/scenic artist in 1871 and 1891 is our man :-)
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JoonieCloonie
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22 Jun 2014 22:34 |
big stretch ... did Adelaide's Coe family have any connection with Surrey?
_______________________________________________________
the household 'C Mortimer' the Decorator was visiting in 1891 in Reigate Surrey
> Alfred Hooker 42 gardener born Dorking Surrey Harriett A Hooker 46 born Horsham Sussex Alfred Hy Hooker 15 Florence M Hooker 13 Albert J Hooker 11 > C Mortimer 43
Alfred Hooker with his mother and stepfather in 1861 in Dorking Surrey (also 1871)
> William Coe 44 c1817 Dorking Surrey, gardener Hannah Coe 48 James Hooker 17 Henry Hooker 14 > Alfred Hooker 12 Jane Hooker 7
1871 someone has corrected William Coe's name but no details
Name: William Dodd [William Coe] Age: 54 Estimated birth year: abt 1817 Where born: Dorking, Surrey, England
_______________________________________________________
Adelaide Coe's household in 1891 in Cogshall Cheshire
John Coe 61 c1830 Whitley Cheshire, chemical laborer Margeret Coe 66 Charles Coe 59 c1832 Whitley Cheshire, brother, widowed, timekeeper chem works - her father? Adelaid Coe 9 niece
_______________________________________________________
too big a stretch I imagine
I was waiting for a call back from the emergency vet and finally gave up until the morning, but here I sat, playing with this and that and Mortimers and Coes ... :-)
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Allan
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22 Jun 2014 23:04 |
JC,
Many thanks for the further info.
I'll investigate further. I still have to check out the witnesses to my grandparents marriage.
With respect to the 1891 census for Adelaide Coe, the Charles Coe in the household was her gt uncle. I sent of for his Death Certificate a few years ago thinking that it was my great grandfather, only to find that the informant was Annie Coe (Adelaide's mother) who was shown as his niece.
The Coe's didn't have much imagination when it came to naming their children, with Richard, Charles William and Johnson being the most common names when naming children of various brothers (if that makes sense).
It doesn't help that Adelaide's mother, Annie, who came from Ireland, had the maiden name Coe.
As for the Coes in the South of England it is possible that they are related, but I have tried to concentrate on the immediate family of Adelaide, as they never ventured far from Cheshire.
Watch this space :-D
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Allan
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2 Jul 2014 03:54 |
JC
That C Mortimer on the 1871/1891 Census is too much of a co-incidence.
I use FMP and on viewing the image on the 1861 census it looks as though the word after Theatre could be Service.
Also, the term Decorator could well apply as in a couple of trades directories my grandfather advertised in, it was under the heading 'Interior Designers'
I have sent off for a copy of Jane Raine's marriage certificate (1853) to see if that can provide any further clues.
I will let you know if anything turns up :-). It usually takes two to three weeks for the certs to arrive here
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JoonieCloonie
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3 Jul 2014 03:42 |
aha! on sober second thought and after wading through all the muddle, you see it too :-)
I so wish I could find that fellow in 1881 (and I have tried repeatedly since last posting here, too)
if he is the Clifford Poole in 51 and 61, who afterward disappears, that would be those four years accounted for
but 1881 and 1901, just no sign even of C Poole ... even though he married in 1877
(which of course, it must be said, is leading us down a path toward possible name change because of bigamy ...)
for the 'decorator' occupation, don't forget what I mentioned from what was posted in the thread much earlier:
your Clifford was 'Decorative Artist (Theatre and Cinema)' on his death certificate and 'Painter Artist' in the 1911 census
'decorator' as in 'set decorator' ... or just an enumerator's arbitrary term for his occupation ...
I'm glad you came back because I was starting to feel a bit humpy that you weren't as fascinated with the 1871/91 Mr Mortimer as I was :-D
that marriage certificate idea sounds interesting, hurry back with the info !
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Allan
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3 Jul 2014 08:57 |
JC,
I apologise for the delay, but I'm finding Clifford one of those scratches that sometimes irritate you.
Your reference to Jane Raine/Mortimer as a servant (albeit Housekeeper) in a large house has got me thinking.
Several members of the household in 1851/61 are shown as either Army Captain, or retired officers
Now, massive leap, and probably an erroneous assumption, but a previous researcher, JaneyCanuck, helped me with some Canadian Sketches.
With her help I was able to send images of those sketches to Canada, where they proved to be of historical significance.
Now, the last of those sketches was done in 1850.
What if Jane had a son who showed some artistic talent? Could a kindly soldier have given him at least one of the books as an incentive to develop that talent?
I am apt to make extremely erroneous leaps :-(
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Allan
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21 Jul 2014 09:11 |
JC,
I have now received the marriage certificate for Jane Raine and Joseph Mortimer.
Both are shown as being of full age.
Joseph, a bachelor, Valet
Jane, a spinster; no occupation shown but presumably a servant
Joseph's father is shown as Thomas Mortimer, Servant
Jane's father shown as William Raine Game Keeper.
The witnesses are a George Cragmore (?)
.........(?) Mathews (?)
I'll search on the 1841 census for Thomas Mortimer and William Raine
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JoonieCloonie
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21 Jul 2014 16:52 |
well that doesn't tell us much :-(
Thomas, Joseph's father, is the one in the 1861 household in Leicestershire working for the same household as Jane (Raine) Mortimer, with the two children of Jane and Joseph living with him (Jane was enumerated in the big house), while Joseph was boarding and working in Bury
- at Dog Kennels attached to Skeffington Hall Thomas Mortimer 67 born Bedfordshire, house servant, Elizabeth Mortimer 27 housekeeper Sarah A Mortimer 6 grandchildren William Mortimer 3
- Jane Mortimer 1821 Yorkshire, married, a servant at Skeffington Hall (Jane Raine)
Joseph's occ on the mrge cert matches with his 1851 occupation in St Geo Han Sqre as servant to a gentleman.
(remember that the family ended up in Lancashire later)
Romald Kirk is a hotbed of Raines
but in 1841 the only Williams of an age to be father of Jane c1821 are farmers
but ... if the C Mortimer in 1871/1891 is your Clifford, and if he is connected with this family ... it still seems he was born pre marriage so YDNA may still be the only ticket to finding out who his dad was :-)
on page 2 of this long thread you said
'Just to compound the mystery I have found a Joseph Mortimer who died in Stockport prior to my grandparents wedding.'
is this that death? (I don't see a death in Stockport)
Deaths Mar 1896 Mortimer Joseph 72 Chorlton 8c 461
this would indeed seem to be the Joseph who married Jane Raine as he was born c1824 per the censuses and Rusholme where they eventually lived is in Chorlton reg dist
also
Deaths Dec 1892 Mortimer Jane 72 Chorlton 8c 515
Jane Raine Mortimer was born c1821 per the censuses
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NB3J-B43
Name: Joseph Mortimore Gender: Male Christening Date: 16 Nov 1823 Christening Place: OAKLEY,BEDFORD,ENGLAND Birth Date: 20 Sep 1823 Father's Name: Thomas Mortimore Mother's Name: Ann Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C00374-2
also christenings Mary Mortimore 1821, Mary Mortimore 1828, in that batch
and you know the certificate I would still really like to see is
Births Sep 1848 POOLE Clifford Austin St Geo. Han Sq. 1 38
... and those marriages
Marriages Dec 1877 DONAGAN Mary Frances St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 763 Poole Clifford Austin St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 763
Marriages Mar 1902 Hopcraft Louisa Southwark 1d 26 Poole Clifford Austin Southwark 1d 26
:-)
edit - my guess about Louisa Hopcraft was right, Louisa Nolan aged 49 c1853 widow of Thomas Hance Hopcraft (although I can't see a death for him), married 1883 St Saviour to Clifford Austin Poole aged 54 c1848 widowed, father Austin Poole
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJSW-2LR https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN11-5NB
there's no marriage for an Austin Poole in the GRO or at familysearch there's no Austin Pool/e in any census of the right age except possibly 1881 Austin Poole born c1835 London, in Metropolitan Lunatic Asylum, Watford, "imbecile" so unikely no death of any Austin Poole to fit I wonder whether Clifford Austin Poole was the son of a Ms Poole and a Mr Austin which would make him not likely Clifford Mortimer ... but still so like him
Louisa Hopcraft in 1901 in Newington, widow aged 50, tailoress, born Dublin Ireland
... but how interesting, this would really seem to be her
1911
Name: Louisa Austin Age in 1911: 60 Estimated birth year: abt 1851 Relation to Head: Head Birth Place: Dublin, Dublin, Ireland Civil Parish: Newington St Mary County/Island: London Street address: 59 Aldbridge Street, Surrey Sq, Walworth, London Occupation: Charwoman > Marital Status: Married
it actually says 'widow' scratched out and 'married' entered, married 9 years, so this is definitely Louisa Nolan Hopcraft who married Clifford Austin Poole in 1902 and says she is still married
I would suspect
Deaths Dec 1928 Austin Louisa 78 Southwark 1d 68
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JoonieCloonie
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21 Jul 2014 22:52 |
uh oh!
I have solved the mystery of Clifford Austin Poole with that last little find ... he is apparently NOT Clifford Mortimer
married Mary Frances Donagan in 1877
1881
Name: Clifford Austin genera llabourer Spouse: Mary F. Austin Birth: abt 1858 - London Mary Le Bone, London, Middlesex, England Residence: 1881 - St George Hannover Square, London, England
1891
Name: Clifford Austin furniture porter Spouse: Mary Austin Birth: abt 1849 - Marylebone, London, England Residence: 1891 - Westminster, St John the Evangalist Westminster, London, England
1911
Name: Clifford Austin general labourer Birth: abt 1848 - City of London Residence: 2 Apr 1911 - Sutton, Surrey, England in workhouse, married, wife not present
Mary Frances Donagan was much older than Clifford Austin Poole, 45 to his 23 in 1881
this is her death
Deaths Jun 1901 Austin Mary Frances 70 St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 301
after which he married Louisa Nolan Hopcraft
so that is the young Clifford Poole from the 1851 and 1861 taken care of and thoroughly accounted for and not your Clifford, and we are back on the single trail of the 1871 1891 Mr C Mortimer.
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Allan
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21 Jul 2014 22:58 |
Hi JC
I'll send of for the birth certificate.
The 'Death' of Joseph Mortimer at Stockport, which I originally posted much earlier on this thread, was a total mistake of mine :-(
I should have said ' Marriage' ( a bit of a grave mistake to make :-))
I did correct the mistake further down the thread. EvieBeavie was helping me at that time.
There were two Josephs married at Stockport in the 1860's but checking on FreeBMD none of the names meant anything.
I may have to revisit those, as well as the death in Chorlton.
Allan
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JoonieCloonie
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21 Jul 2014 23:05 |
I fear we crossed -- cancel that birth certificate !
Clifford Austin Poole is his own man and not your man Clifford Mortimer. :-(
but for the Joseph and Jane Mortimer deaths, the ones I posted above are definitely the couple who worked as servants and settled in Lancashire.
their marriage was in St Geo Han Sqre London in 1853 remember (of course you do, oops, that is the certificate you just got)
I don't think I would go looking at random J Mortimer marriages just yet ...
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Allan
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21 Jul 2014 23:23 |
Thanks JC :-)
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JoonieCloonie
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21 Jul 2014 23:59 |
I have a theory ..................
Jane Raine's family was from Romaldkirk which is in Teesdale reg dist which spans Durham and Yorkshire North Riding
Births Dec 1848 Raine Male Teesdale 24 374
well, you never know :-)
edit ... except OOPS
Deaths Dec 1848 RAINE Male Teesdale 24 214
... so it was the usual situation of an infant dying at birth, not a birth registered before a name was chosen ...
found Jane Raine's family in 1851 in Mickleton, Teesdale reg dist
William Raine 60 > gamekeeper born Lunedale Sarah Raine 52 born Streathman Durham Robt Raine 22 all children born Mickleton Ann Raine 19 John Raine 17 Valentine Raine 15 Edward Raine 10
no stray grandchildren
1841 in Mickleton
William Raine 50 gamekeeper Sarah Raine 38 William Raine 15 Sarah Raine 14 Robert Raine 11 Nancey Raine 9 John Raine 7 Elizabeth Raine 5 Valentine Raine 3 Edward Raine 1
(Jane at age 20 already gone)
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Allan
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22 Jul 2014 00:17 |
I'll fossick around, as Ozzies are wont to say.
I had noticed a preponderance of Raines in the Yorkshire/Teesdale area.
Nearly as thick on the ground as the Coe's in Cheshire.
Incidentally, I did find my maternal Grandfather who I thought was going to be as difficult to find as Clifford.
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Allan
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25 Aug 2014 01:30 |
Apologies for not coming back sooner, but I've been tied up with friends' illnesses and the death of another friend.
JC
I have found Joseph on the 1861 census, although mistranscribed
name(s) Joseph
Last name Mortiner
Relationship Servant
Marital status Married
Gender Male
Age 37
Birth year 1824
Occupation Butler
Birth town -
Birth town as transcribed BEDFORD OAKLEY
Birth county -
Birth county as transcribed -
Birth place other as transcribed -
House number 313
Street Oxford Street
Parish Chorlton upon Medlock
City or borough Manchester
County Lancashire
Country England
Municipal ward St Luke
Parliamentary borough Manchester
Ecclesiastical district St Saviour
Registration district Chorlton
Enumeration district 21
Piece number 2880
Folio number 87
Page number 14
Family member last name MORTINER, NORBURY, JONES, SCHWABE, BLAND, CLERK
Family member first name(s) JOSEPH, BETSY, ANNE, ADOLPH, MARIE, FREDERICK, MASON, MAUDLIN, MATILDA, GEORGE
Record set 1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Category Census, land & surveys
Record collection Census
Collections from Great Britain
I know that it doesn't really matter over much, but Chorlton upon Medlock runs into Rusholme, making a bit more sense of the Provisions and Beer supplier business
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