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Can anyone help with our family mystery! My father in law is called William George Roland Palmer, born April 1919, and we cannot trace him anywhere. The mystery is further compounded by the fact that my F - in - L's father was called Armyn Roland Palmer born May 1889. This is when it gets complicated, there is no record of Armyn's birth but there is the record of Herman Roland Panser's birth at the same time. Not unusual on its own but my F-in-Law Bill remembers his mother as Rosa Rodgers, which is strange as normally you would remember your parent's name being the same name as yours. Secondly we can find that Rosa Rodgers married a Panser in 1917, we are waiting for this marriage certificate to hopefully clarify some of this. Bill remembers his mother Rosa living in Blackstock Road Hackney, which we have confirmed through the 1901 census, so we need to see if the Rosa who married Mr Panser is the same person. The next query, we can find a William George Roland Pansie's birth certifcate with a mother named Rosa nee Rodgers but married to a Herman Victor Ralph Pansie, so again very close but not able to prove as yet.
Therefore we cannot determine if Herman Panser, somehow became Armyn Palmer, and is so where did the Pansie's fit in as parents to potentially Bill. We understand that during the war, people with german sounding names may have changed them for more english sounding names, but don't know if that is traceable. Bill is also aware that his dad went into prison for stealing a typewriter but was that Herman or Armyn and how can we find out? We cannot explain why Bill knew his mother as Rodgers if they were married plus he was told by his dad she had died of consumption when Bill was about 5/6 so around 1924/25, again we cannot find a record of the death of Rosa Rodgers/Pansie/Panser or Panzer around that time.
Bill has never seen his birth certificate so whether one existed we do not know, plus he served in the Wiltshires during the second world war, and we can't find him there even though we have his payment book etc.
We have been lucky through this site to locate the family of Rosa'a parents - if she is in fact my husband's grandmother, but at this stage we have drawn a blank.
Bill is 90 in April so we would dearly love to fill the blanks, so if anybody could give us advice as to how to move forward it would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
Lorraine

just for the record!!!!

HERMAN PANSIE Pedigree
Male


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Event(s):
Birth: JAN 1846 Hannover Stadt, Hannover, Preussen

Christening:
Death:
Burial:


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Parents:
Father: CHRISTIAN PANSIE Family
Mother: CAROLINE BAUER


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Messages:
Form submitted by a member of the LDS Church. The form lists the submitter's name and address and may include source information. The address may be outdated. Details vary. To find the form, you must know the batch and sheet number.


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Source Information:
Batch Number: 8689607
Sheet: 03
Source Call No.: 1396291 Type: Film

Phew. I've been having a hard time duplicating your results. Here's a beginning of why.


Births Jun 1889
Panzer Hermann Roland Islington 1b 248

Not Herman Roland Panser, that is. I wondered, because the German name is spelled with two Ns. And Panzer would be German, Panser not.

So he definitely does seem to be of German origin.


His parents perhaps?

Marriages Mar 1876
Panzer Herman Christian Shoreditch 1c 269
Strathern Barbara Allen Shoreditch 1c 269

(The IGI shows them as marrying: batch M040806.)


If that was his father, he died shortly after the son's birth:

Deaths Dec 1889
Panzer Hermann Christian 60 London C. 1c 33


Hermann Roland Panzer's marriage:

Marriages Sep 1912
PANZER Herman R Rossiter Islington 1b 662
Rossiter Dora G Panzer Islington 1b 662


This could explain why Hermann and Rosa were not married.

...

Looks like Hermann's mother in 1891, but no Hermann:


Name: Barbara Panzer
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Where born: Huntingtoner, Perthshire, Scotland

Civil Parish: All Hallows
Ecclesiastical parish: Allhallows
Town: London
County/Island: London

Registration district: London City
Sub registration district: Broad Street

Barbara Panzer 44
Agnes Panzer 11 - born London City


Now, when my ancestors lived in Broad Street circa 1870, it was a bit of a bohemian place. Checked the image; sure enough: Barbara is a caretaker -- lives in rear of The Talbot restaurant, next door to the Crown and Cushion restaurant (operated by a German family), with the London Wall licensed tavern two more doors down.

Where's Hermann?

Hermann's sister Agnes:

Births Jun 1879
Panzer Agnes Clara London C. 1c 39

No record after that in that name, i.e. no marriage or death.


Mother Barbara Allen (Strathern) died 1894:

Deaths Dec 1894
Panzer Barbara Allen 46 London C. 1c [38]1


Btw, the Christian in the father's name ties in with AnnGG's IGI record. I think "Pansie" is just someone's silly misreading of writing. Remember that's a submitted record, submitted by a Mormon we don't know.

That birth -- JAN 1846 Hannover Stadt, Hannover, Preussen -- would be Hermann Christian Panzer who married Barbara Allen Strathern and was the father of Hermann Roland Panzer
-- no, hold on, the father was 60 when he died in 1889, so he was born 1828-29ish. Eek. Was that the father? Married rather old if so. But fits with dying right after son's birth.

I wonder whether he was the *father* of the 1846 Herman, and his age at death was a little rounded down.

...

Ruling out ... I considered this person for a mistranscribed Agnes Panzer, but she is Clara Abigail Pannifer born 1878:


Name: Clara A Paninfer
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Nurse
Where born: Battersea, London, England
Civil Parish: Wandsworth


Just can't find Hermann in 1891 or 1901 ... so far ...

I can't find this Rosa Rodgers - Herman Victor Ralph Pansie 1917 marriage at all. Has it not been transcribed yet?

Hermann and Barbara in 1881:

Name: Herman C. Panzer
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Barbara
Where born: Germany

Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Agent For Naturalization

Civil Parish: Allhallows London Wall
County/Island: London
Street address: 1 Leathersellers Bdg

Registration district: London City
Sub registration district: Broad Street

Herman C. Panzer 52
Barbara Panzer 33
Louisa Panzer 12
Margarita Panzer 9
Ada Panzer 7
William Panzer 4
Agnes Panzer 1


Whoa! Loads of kids! And not all Barbara's, if they married in 1876.

But yes, there we are, born c1829. So there's also at least a Hermann Jr. #1 born 1846 somewhere (unless he didn't survive childhood).


Mind you, we haven't established that these are Hermann Roland Panzer 1889's parents. Hermann was a popular name in the Panzer clan, from the censuses. That birth cert is being got?

If Pansie was a "silly" spelling or misreading of the name, would that mean that potentially the birth certificate for William George Roland Pansie - which we have - although it states the mother as Rosa nee Rodgers Pansie, that in reality they may never have married, and that Herman or Hermann was actually married to nee Rossiter in 1912.
Could have been a fling although one thing I haven't then looked at is what may have happened to Mrs Panser/Panzer nee Rossiter

I guess the bit that remains confusing is how the father took custody or whatever the right description is of the child and not the mother.

A birth to the marriage of Herman R Panzer and Dora G Rossiter 1912:

Births Jun 1915
Panzer Basil T Rossiter Islington 1b 241

we believed that Hermann's parents were Charles and Maria Panzer/Panser living in Mercier Road/avenue - would have to check this - in the 1901 census

Okay, for the record, this is the birth in question:

Births Jun 1919
Pansie William G R Rodgers Islington 1b 375

father Herman Victor Ralph Pansie
mother Rosa Rodgers


And this must be Rosa in 1901:

Name: Rosa Rodgers
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Rosa E
Where born: Islington, London, England

Civil Parish: Stoke Newington
County/Island: London
Registration district: Hackney

William Rodgers 27
Rosa E Rodgers 26
William J Rodgers 6
Rosa Rodgers 15
Minnie Rodgers 4
John Rodgers 2
Gwendoline Wedd 11


EDIT 28 Jan 2008

-- the transcribed age for Rosa in that census is obviously wrong -- she was 5, not 15.


Births Mar 1896
Rodgers Rosa Emma Islington 1b 252

So I've gone off on a wild Panzer chase. When this was info you could have given in the beginning ...

I can't reproduce that either I'm afraid. Where might Mercier Road/avenue be? City, district, county ...?

Okay, thank Ancestry for that one.

Name: Hermann K Garger
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Charles G
Mother's Name: Maria
Where born: Islington, London, England

Name: Charles G Garger
Age: 43
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Maria
Where born: Soho, London, England

Name: Maria Garger
Age: 43
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Charles G
Where born: Caister, Norfolk, England

Civil Parish: Islington
County/Island: London
Registration district: Islington

Charles G Garger 43
Maria Garger 43
Hermann K Garger 11

FreeBMD hasn't got it quite right yet.


Marriages Jun 1888
> Dyball Maria St Giles 1b 830
Knott Frederick Thomas St.Giles 1b 830
NORFOLK Matilda Louise St Giles 1b 830
> PANEER Charles George St Giles 1b 830
> PAUZER Charles George St Giles 1b 830

Soho my big toe. And Charles my gnarly knuckles.

I suspected that the Anglicization process had begun, so I searched for Carl (a name I had already seen in these census searches).


1881

Name: Carl G. Panger
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Carl H.
Mother's Name: Amelia S.
Where born: Germany
Occupation: Telegraphic Engineer

Name: Carl H. Panger
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Amelia S.
Where born: Germany
Condition as to marriage:
Occupation: Tailor (Employing 1 Boy)

Name: Amelia S. Panger
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Carl H.
Where born: Germany

Civil Parish: St George Bloomsbury
County/Island: London

Street address: 40 Bernard St
Registration district: St Giles

apologies, but I thought that I had included that info in original posting. Thank you for your help.

Nope, sorry, don't see it. Oh well. They're pretty likely all related anyhow, so you can tuck them away.

Now - could you clarify that 1917 marriage? Does one have to download the image to find it? Because it really doesn't seem to be transcribed at FreeBMD.


I guess you're getting the drift that I do think you're on the right track with Panzers. ;)


... Yes, and this is why I threw Karl in when I searched too, because Carl isn't the German spelling.

1871:

Karl H Panzer 40
Amelia Panzer 38
Carl G Panzer 13
Halday Panzer 10
Max Panzer 8
Ita Panzer 5
Oscar Panzer 2
Augus Frohbert 41


This is giving you loads of rellies to go hunting for. If you hadn't seen these before ... . You'll find names like Max in the BMDs, for instance.

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