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I am trying to trace descendants of the above person who was a witness at the marriage of my uncle in MIle End Old Town in December 1907. Assuming she was the best friend of the bride and of similar age - that puts her at being born in 1888. The other witness was a Michael John KIrby. Any advice on where to start please. She signed her name LIllian - with two els.
Thanks for reading this. x

without knowing if Kelly was her maiden name of married name it's difficult to look for someone with no BOD either.

Yes I realise that. Probably wrong of me to assume that she was the same age as the bride - ie born c1888. The bride was born in Whitechapel and lived in Stepney - so maybe her pal did also. This is an impossible task but I hoped to get some ideas. As she was only 19 at the time of the wedding I thought it a chance she was still single.

Just a total stab in the dark.

Have you checked out sibling names for the married couple, in case there is a Lillian?


1881 England Census about Lilian Kelly
Name: Lilian Kelly
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relationship to Head: Daughter
Father: Thomas Kelly
Mother: Emma Kelly
Gender: Female
Where born: Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Mile End Old Town
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 32 Maidman St

Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub registration district: Mile End Old Town, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 35

Thomas Kelly 26
Emma Kelly 21
Victor Kelly 2
Lilian Kelly 1
Thomas Kelly
Henrietta Haymond 17

There are no siblings called Lillian from bride or groom - but I have not yet checked out the other witness.. The girl signed her name with two els - so the above census report is not likely to show the correct family. Thanks for your help. It is possible that Lillian Kelly arrived from Ireland so may not appear on our census reports.

The other witness might be this one given the area if you want to follow him up

Marriages Mar 1913 (>99%)

Goring Catherine Kirby Whitechapel 1c 343

Kirby Michael J Goring Whitechapel 1c 343

Thanks for that. I have done tree searches so hope I get some answers

The Lilian that brummiejan found in 1881 appears to be Lillian in1891, so I think you are being too hasty to rule out any Lilian/Lillian on the grounds of one census spelling.

I agree - the presence of an extra 'l' is irrelevant, so don't base anything on it.
Jan

She might reappear as a god-mother to any children of the couple.
How well do you know the family?

Jennifer


never be too hasty to dismiss a record, especially a census record on the basis of a different spelling .........................

the names were written down by an enumerator who would use the spelling that he was familiar with .......... and if a family member did not ask to see what he had written, then .....................................


also remember that many of our ancestors were illiterate, or all but illiterate, especially as you get further and further back in time

for background, see also

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1345513

The couple who got married did not have any children and it is her disappearance that is being investigated by her niece and myself as niece of the bridegroom. (Henry Frederick Bass born 1885 and Mary Ann Connor born Whitechapel in August 1888). We are reluctantly beginning to accept that Mary Ann Bass took up with another man and used his name and her death was registered in that name. The only Mary Ann Bass death for someone at the correct age was the wrong person.
On thread 1345513 I mentioned that the bredegroom Henry Frederick BAss lived in Camberwell until his death in 1959. For a good few years there was also a Lilian Mary Bass at the same address. I had hoped there would be a way of finding out if this Lilian Mary was the same person as their friend Lilian Kelly. The informant on the death cert of Hen Fred Bass was someone called John J O'Keefe describing himself as nephew and JoonieCloonie on 11 Oct made me think that the informant was a son from the Lilian M Bass. There is a connection - I hope - but where. My dodgy wrist is limiting my time on here at the moment. Thanks to anyone who is taking an interest. It is much appreciated. :-D

Did he live on Philip Road? If so, the name of the woman living with him 1928 is Mary Lilian, but in 1935 is Ann Mary!
There is also Lilian Marian and Marian Lilian recorded.
What a mystery you seem to have.
Jan

Yes Jan. 27 Philip Road all through the twenties and up to his death in 1959. We know for a fact that Hen Fred's marriage was rocky but don'k know where Mary Ann went to. However, as her best pal Lilian may have taken up with Hen Fred after Mary Ann went - it may be her. What was her real name before she adopted his? I have a vivid imagination. The reversal of christian names does not help does it? Also Mary could be used instead of Marian maybe?.
I don't have access to the ancestry london voters listings at the moment so maybe some kind person can have a look for a Lilian Kelly in the years before the Lilian appeared at no.27 - in 1924. Is she Lilian Mary or Mary Lilian? If she was the best pal of Mary Ann Connor, it could be that these ladies shared him! No telly in those days!

I do wonder about that Ann Mary in 1935 though - any chance she is his wife?
Jan

Just to confirm, Ann Mary/Mary Ann at Philip Rd 1932-5 Lilian Marion re-appears 1936.

John J O'Keefe is living at Philip Rd 1963.
Jan

Yes Jan - Every chance she is coming home for a reconciliation. She turned up there in 1932 and 1935 was the last time she was listed. Her disappearance coincides with the appearance of the Lilian. If she split from Hen Fred between 1911 and him appearing at no.27 in 1920, I suppose she could have had a child with anr. So many possibilities! That child may have the name Bass (if the daddy did a runner). Was that child Lilian? so my idea of the bridesmaid moving in in 1935 may be wrong.
The Lilian may have been there earlier but too young for the electoral register. As regards John O'Keefe - he vanished. I have done tree searches and put a separate post on here but no luck in pinning him down.
I wonder if you could find Henry Frederick Bass between the years of 1911 and 1920 on the voters lists? Another thought - Hen Fred was a lorry driver so may have brought a floosie from some other part of the country to set up home with. The possibilities are endless. :-S

Hello again. I have another idea to bounce off you brummiejan. Say for instance that the bride did run off with anr. (family rumour is that it was a policeman from Arbour Square police station - where the couple lived in 1911). The bridesmaid Lillian Kelly could be the person listed as marrying someone called Freeman in Southwark in March 1918.(For some reason I can't find his christian name on freebmd) In December that year a child was born named Lilian A M Freeman - mother's maiden name Kelly. All these Lilians and variations of Mary,Marian, etc could have moved in with our Hen Fred and started using his name Bass. They had all gone by the time Hen Fred died in Sept 1959. What do you think about this lates supposition of mine please? :-S