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Edward Wiseman 1845 – 1917 (born Wormley Hertfordshire)
(Disappeared for the 1871 and 1881 Censuses) – according to 1911 Census was married for 40 Years and had 16 children

Louisa Worley Pile (Mason) 1850 -1930 (Born Maidstone)
Born before her mother married Edward Mason – Census 1871 shows the surname Pile (Pill – transcription Error) (In the Marriage Banns it gives Edward Masons Surname as Pile
Children as Follows
Horace Edward Wiseman?1873 – 1960??
?Thomas William Wiseman?1874 – ??
?Ellen Harriet Wiseman?1877 – ??
?Mary Ann Wiseman?1879 – ??
?James Wiseman?1881 – ??
?Arthur Wiseman?1882 – ??
?Daisy Wiseman?1884 – 1975??
?Alice Worley Wiseman?1887 – 1969??
?Jessie Mabel Wiseman?1888 – ??
?Albert Sidney Wiseman?1890 – 1918??
?Louisa Wiseman?1892 – 1974??
?Charles A Wiseman?1895 – 1898??
?Blanche Wiseman?1898 – ??
?Arthur Wiseman?1902 – ??
?Nellie Wiseman?1905 – ??
Ivy Wiseman?1909 –
Which is 16 Children and in 1911 only 10 were listed as surviving.
Some of these children are listed as Louisa’s but with other Siblings as the father???
Does anybody have any further information to help me untangle this web

welcome to the Boards, Rachel


Firstly, it is most unlikely that anyone with knowledge of this family will see your post .................. we have estimated in the past that only about 1% of the membership even know about the Boards.


The way this site works if that you need to Search member Trees yourself, by inputting various names from your family, and seeing if they occur in any member trees on here. Then you contact that member(s)


To do this, look up to the right of your screen, and you will see a tab Search

Click on that, then click on Search All Member Trees.




Secondly, the best thing about these Boards, and this site, is the help given by other members who do their very best to help others by using their knowledge and expertise to search for information on other sites to which we subscribe, or know about.


and that is what I am about to do!!

so Edward Wiseman married Louisa Pile in 1872 .....


from freebmd.org.uk ................


Marriages Sep 1872 (>99%)

Pile Louisa Woolwich 1d 1331
Wiseman Edward Woolwich 1d 1331

for our help and information ............ I know that you have this information!

from ancestry

Edward in 1891 ................


1891 Census

Name: Edward Wiseman
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa Wiseman
Gender: Male
Where born: Wamley, Hertfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Streatham
Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel
Town: Streatham
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub registration district: Streatham
ED, institution, or vessel: 21

Piece: 457
Folio: 135
Page Number: 60

Edward Wiseman 45 General Labourer
Louisa Wiseman 40 b.ca 1841, Maidstone, Kent
James Wiseman 10 b.ca 1881, Maidstone
Mary A Wiseman 12 b.ca 1879, Maidstone
Daisy Wiseman 7
Alice Wiseman 4
Jessy Wiseman 3
Albert Wiseman 1
Thomas Wiseman 54 b.ca 1837, Wormley, Brother, General Labourer
Rebecca Read 57 Lodger

Address:- 42 Beasley (?sp) Street, Streatham, London



and in 1851 ................

1851 Census

Name: Edward Wiseman
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas Wiseman
Mother's name: Ann Wiseman
Gender: Male
Where born: Wormley, Hertfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Wormley
Ecclesiastical parish: Wormley
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Registration district: Ware
Sub-registration district: Hoddesdon
ED, institution, or vessel: 1

Household schedule number: 6
Piece: 1705
Folio: 5
Page Number: 3

Thomas Wiseman 35 b.ca 1816, Wormley, Road Lab
Ann Wiseman 33 b.ca 1818, Hoddesdon, Hertfordshire
Harriett Wiseman 9 b.ca 1842, Hoddesdon
William Wiseman 8 b.ca 1843, Hoddesdon
Edward Wiseman 4
Henry Wiseman 1 b.ca 1850, Wormsley

Address:- Wormsley Village

?????????


from ancestry


England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 about Edward Wiseman

Name: Edward Wiseman
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 20 Sep 1844
Baptism Place: Wormley,Hertford,England
Father: Thomas Wiseman
Mother: Ann
FHL Film Number: 991328




London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Edward Wisemán

Name: Edward Wisemán
Spouse: Louisa Pile
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 31 Aug 1872
Parish: St Mary Magdalene, Woolwich
Borough: Greenwich
Father Name: Thomas Wiseman
Spouse Father: Edward Pile
Register Type: Parish Register

from image:-

Edward
Of Age
Bachelor
Occupation:- Driver, Royal Horse Artillery
Address:- Barracks
Father Occupation:- Gardener

Louisa
Of Age
Spinster
no occupation shown
Address:- Shooters Hill
Father occupation:- Bricklayer

Witnesses:- Henry Jordan and Esther Jenkins (??)

1911 Census

Name Age
Edward Wiseman 64
Louisa Wiseman 60 b.ca 1851, Kent
Arthur Wiseman 29 b.ca 1882, Kent
Jessie Wiseman 23 b.ca 1888, Streatham
Albert Wiseman 21 b.ca 1890, Streatham
Blanche Wiseman 13 b.ca 1898, Streatham
Arthur Wiseman 9 b.ca 1902, Streatham, Son
Nellie Wiseman 6 b.ca 1905, Streatham, Daughter
Ivy Wiseman 2 b.ca 1909, Streatham, Daughter


Note that the 1911 census asks how many children the WIFE had borne .............. not how many children were born to the marriage



I must say, I know it is not impossible, but I do find it rather amazing that a woman gave birth to 3 children after the age of 50 :-D




1901 Census

Name Age
Edward Wiseman 54
Louisa Wiseman 51
Mary Wiseman 22 b.ca 1879, Streatham
Daisy Wiseman 19 b.ca 1882, Streatham
Jessie Wiseman 12
Albert Wiseman 11
Louisa Wiseman 8
Blanche Wiseman 3

Here is Louisa in 1881, minus Edward ...................



1881 Census

Name: Louisa Wiseman
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relationship to Head: Wife (Head) (Head)
Gender: Female
Where born: Maidstone, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Maidstone
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street address: St Peter St No 2 In Passage
Marital Status: Married

Occupation: Charwoman Wife Of A Genl Labr
Registration district: Maidstone
Sub registration district: West Maidstone
ED, institution, or vessel: 9

Piece: 928
Folio: 31
Page Number: 18

Louisa Wiseman 30
Thomas Wiseman 7 b.ca 1874, Farnham, Surrey
Ellen Wiseman 4 b.ca 1877, Streatham, Surrey
Mary Ann Wiseman 2 b.ca 1879, Maidstone
Arthur Wiseman 8 mos b.ca 1880, Maidstone

England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 about Louisa Worley Pile

Name: Louisa Worley Pile
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 29 Dec 1850
Baptism Place: Maidstone, Kent, England
Mother: Ann Pile
FHL Film Number: 1835450
Reference ID: item 1 p 251


and the 1871 Census

1871 Census

Name: Louisa Pill
[Louisa Mason]
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Edward Mason
Mother's name: Ann Mason
Gender: Female
Where born: Maidstone, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Maidstone
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Maidstone
Sub-registration district: East Maidstone
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Household schedule number: 47
Piece: 944
Folio: 29
Page Number: 9

Edward Mason 43
Ann Mason 46
Louisa Pill 20
Sarah A Mason 12
Ellen H Mason 10
Mary Jane Mason 6
Horace H Mason 3



Marriages Sep 1857 (>99%)

Mason Edward Maidstone 2a 680 Scan available - click to view
Pile Ann Maidstone 2a 680
Pill Ann Maidstone 2a 680

from ancestry ..............



England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Name: Mary Ann Wiseman
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 4 May 1879
Baptism Place: St. Peter's, Maidstone, Kent, England
Father: Edward Wiseman
Mother: Louisa
FHL Film Number: 1835481
Reference ID: item 4 p 176



London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906


Name: Ellen Harriet Wiseman
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 4 Feb 1877
Father's Name: Edward Wiseman
Mother's name: Louisa Worley Wiseman
Parish or Poor Law Union: Streatham St Leonard
Borough: Lambeth
Register Type: Parish Registers

from image:-
Born:- 9 December 1876
Father occupation:- Gardener
Address:- Streatham


Name: Louisa Florence Wiseman
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 30 Apr 1882
Father's Name: Edward Wiseman
Mother's name: Louisa Wiseman
Parish or Poor Law Union: Streatham Common Immanuel
Borough: Lambeth
Register Type: Parish Registers

from image:-
Father occupation:- Labourer
Address:- Lower Streatham


Name: Daisy Moore Wiseman
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 30 Dec 1883
Father's Name: Edward Frederic Wiseman
Mother's name: Louisa Worley Wiseman
Parish or Poor Law Union: Streatham Common Immanuel
Borough: Lambeth
Register Type: Parish Registers

from image:-
Father:- Labourer
Address:- Lower Streatham


Name: George James Wiseman
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 22 Feb 1885
Father's Name: Edward Frederick Wiseman
Mother's name: Louisa Worley Wiseman
Parish or Poor Law Union: Streatham Common Immanuel
Borough: Lambeth
Register Type: Parish Registers

Father occupation:- Labourer
Address:- 14 Cromwell Terrace, S Streatham


Name: Alice Warley Wiseman
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 30 Jan 1887
Father's Name: Edward Wiseman
Mother's name: Louisa Warley Wiseman
Parish or Poor Law Union: Streatham Common Immanuel
Borough: Lambeth
Register Type: Parish Registers

Father occupation:- Labourer
Address:- 14 Cromwell Terrace


Name: Jesse Mabel Wiseman
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 29 Jul 1888
Father's Name: Horace Edward Wiseman <<<< ????
Mother's name: Louisa Warley Wiseman
Parish or Poor Law Union: Streatham Common Immanuel
Borough: Lambeth
Register Type: Parish Registers

Father occupation:- Labourer
Address:- South Streatham



Name: Albert Sidney Wiseman
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 30 Mar 1890
Father's Name: Edward Frederick Wiseman
Mother's name: Louisa Worley Wiseman
Parish or Poor Law Union: Streatham Common Immanuel
Borough: Lambeth
Register Type: Parish Registers

Father:- Labourer
Address:- Ferrers Road, Streatham


Name: Louisa Blanche Wireman
[Louisa Blanche Wiseman]
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 30 Oct 1892
Father's Name: Edward Frederick Wireman
Mother's name: Louisa Worley Wireman
Parish or Poor Law Union: Streatham Common Immanuel
Borough: Lambeth
Register Type: Parish Registers

Father occupation:- Labourer
Address:- 42 Basley (??) St


Name: Charles Alexander Wiseman
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 2 Mar 1895
Father's Name: Edward Frederick Wiseman
Mother's name: Louisa Worley Wiseman
Parish or Poor Law Union: Streatham Common Immanuel
Borough: Lambeth
Register Type: Parish Registers

Father occupation:- Labourer
Address:- 42 Besley (??) Street





This is NOT a child of Edward and Louisa Worley Wiseman ............

Name: Lilian Mary Wiseman
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 15 Feb 1903
Father's Name: Edward Charles Wiseman
Mother's name: Louisa Mary Wiseman
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Oswald, Anselm Road
Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham
Register Type: Parish Registers

Looks like he was away 1871 1881 Military...


Hertfordshire Baptisms Transcription (Find My Past)
First name(s) Edward
Last name
Wiseman
Birth year 1846
Birth day 13
Birth month Aug
Baptism year 1846
Baptism day 20
Baptism month Sep
Place Wormley
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Father's occupation Labourer
Mother's first names(s) Ann

Births Sep 1846 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------
Wiseman Edward Ware 6 395

Chris :)

Are these births showing anywhere?

1911 census
Arthur Wiseman 9 b.ca 1902, Streatham, Son
Nellie Wiseman 6 b.ca 1905, Streatham, Daughter
Ivy Wiseman 2 b.ca 1909, Streatham, Daughter

Have you used free bmd to look for deaths, as this looks a possibility:

Deaths Mar 1913
Wiseman Thomas W 39 Dartford 2a 843

London, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1980 (Ancestry)

Wiseman 12 Feb 1891 Norwood Cemetery, Norwood Road, Lambeth

(one above, 42 Besley Street. 4 days. No Name)

Chris :)

Deaths Mar 1891 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Wiseman Male 0 Wandsworth 1d 531

patchem .......


I did look for those 3 births last night

there are birth registrations, and there are even 2 or 3 baptisms for each name ................ none have the parents named as Edward and Louisa



Personally, I think at least the last 2 could be grandchildren, maybe of an unmarried daughter.

Thank you all so much, it is like pulling threads out of a giant tangle, I primarily use Ancestry and have only been researching about a month, but quickly discovered this family was - (on most trees I looked at) in a huge mess!!

Arthur Wiseman 9 b.ca 1902, Streatham, Son
Nellie Wiseman 6 b.ca 1905, Streatham, Daughter
Ivy Wiseman 2 b.ca 1909, Streatham, Daughter

I think these last 3 are all the children of Arthur (number 1) and actually grandchildren of Edward and Louisa Certainly Nellie (Ellen) and Arthur are - looking at school records, still cannot find Ivy - looking at all the children though in case she belongs to one of the others!!

I have no idea why Horace Edward would be recorded as Jessies father at Baptism - Horace was my nans Grandfather and she told me her mum Plessie was the oldest, unless he had a secret child ?
Horace was raised by his Grandparents on his mothers side, which is where all this started and part of the Tangle is to do with her (Louisa Worley - Mason/Pile/Wiseman) I think she was born before her parents married (hence Pile).

Chris Ho - you are Awesome - you have found another missing child :)

Thank You so much for your help :-D

There is also a
Queenie Wiseman born in 1883,

adopted by the Mason family (Louisa Worley Mason/Pile's parents) Who was living with them on the 1891, and 1901 census (Ancestry). She must have come from one of the Wiseman family, too much coincidence. But having trouble finding more - It was probably a nickname!!

Queenie Wiseman, b.ca 1883, Maidstone, is a domestic servant with the Cox family in Maidstone in the 1901 Census ...................

is the Cox family connected with the Mason/Pile's??




Queenie was also a legitimate name, not only a nickname

No the COx's nothing to do with the Masons. I wondered about a nickname after discovering Nellie was actually Ellen
I can find no records of a birth of a Queenie - and which of the Wisemans she would have come from!
It doesn't really have any impact on my tree, but these Wisemans have got under my skin!
I am totally obsessed
Then you for all your help SylvainCanada