Find Ancestors

Oh tenuous indeed!!!! Well done AG!

And look at the address where Florence was living when baptised....Baptism: Aug 1892 St Matthew the Apostle, Habergham Eaves, Lancashire, England
Florence Constantine - [Child] of John Thomas Constantine & Sarah
Abode: 80 Coal Clough Lane
Occupation: Brick Setter
Baptised by: A. H. N. Parker
Register: Baptisms 1890 - 1896, Page 35, Entry 280
Source: LDS Film 1526143

I am beginning to think Mr Clough actually didn't really exist ;-) ;-) ;-)

Jude

Sarah Jervis and mother Martha Ann Jervis, and father John Riley in 1871:


1871 England Census about Martha Ann Javis
Name: Martha Ann Javis
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Housekeeper
Gender: Female
Where born: Kimberworth, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Ecclesfield
Ecclesiastical parish: Chapeltown St John the Baptist
Town: Chapeltown
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Wortley
Sub-registration district: Ecclesfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Household schedule number: 253
Piece: 4657
Folio: 51
Page Number: 51
Household Members:
Name Age
John Ryley 24
Martha Ann Javis 23
Sarah Jarvis 1 Month



Sarah & John's marriage:


England & Wales Marriages, 1538-1940 about John Thomas Constantine
Name: John Thomas Constantine
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1870
Age: 22
Father's Name: John Constantine
Spouse's Name: Sarah Jarvis
Spouse's Age: 21
Spouse's Father's Name: John Riley <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Marriage Date: 16 Apr 1892
Marriage Place: Burnley, Lancashire, England

Bradley............think I'm becoming too hopeful and foolish!



Name:Sarah Jane Bradley

Registration Year:1871

Registration Quarter:Jan-Feb-Mar

Registration district:Wortley

Parishes for this Registration District:
View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District

Inferred County:Yorkshire West Riding

Volume:9c

Page:207

--------------------------------------

Wonder if this is the above and her birth was registered later?



Name:Sarah Jane Bradley

Birth Date:16 Apr 1867

Parish:Hunslet Moor, St Peter

Baptism Date:
8 May 1867

Father's Name:
Alfred Bradley <<<<<<<<<<Night watchman

Mother's name:
Sarah Ann Bradley

Florence's mother was Sarah Jarvis - how about this birth.....

Births Mar 1871 (>99%)
Jarvis Sarah Riley Wortley 9c 229 Scan available - click to view

tenuous I know...........

Then there's this 1881 census for Sarah

NAME: Martha Jarvis
AGE: 34
ESTIMATED BIRTH YEAR: abt 1847
RELATIONSHIP TO HEAD: Head
GENDER: Female
WHERE BORN: Thorpherley, Yorkshire, England
CIVIL PARISH: Habergham Eaves
COUNTY/ISLAND: Lancashire
COUNTRY: England
STREET ADDRESS: 74 Coal Clough Lane
EDUCATION:

EMPLOYMENT STATUS:

View image
OCCUPATION: Charwoman
REGISTRATION DISTRICT: Burnley
SUB REGISTRATION DISTRICT: Burnley
ED, INSTITUTION, OR VESSEL: 29
NEIGHBORS: View others on page
PIECE: 4151
FOLIO: 41
PAGE NUMBER: 75
HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS:
NAME AGE
Martha Jarvis 34
Sarah Jarvis 9
Ellen Jarvis 7


Jude

Andrew Spriggs seems to have married Martha Ann Riley in Burnley 1893

Doesn't help though!

Yes Gins, had found that census. In another article in the Burnley Express Martha Ann is described as grandmother....still can't work out the relationship!

The rest of Florence's family are also in Burnley St Peter East Ward - district 13 rather than 20.

It's an interesting conspiracy......... :-)

Jude

Nice find Jude


1901 Census

Name:Martha M Spriggs

Age:53

Estimated Birth Year:abt 1848

Relation to Head:Wife

Gender:Female

Spouse:Andrew Spriggs <<Beer seller

Birth Place:
Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish:Burnley

Ecclesiastical parish:St Peter

County/Island:Lancashire

Registration district:Burnley

Sub-registration district:East Ward

ED, institution, or vessel:20

Piece:3864

Folio:28

Page Number:1

Household schedule number:1

Household Members:


Name

Age


Andrew Spriggs 58
Martha M Spriggs 53
Annie Spriggs 26
Sarah Ellen Spriggs 6
Florence Constantine 8 <<<<<<<<<<<Boarder
John Watkins 23
John Shaw 23
William Chapman 32
Thomas Day 25
Thomas Blake 24
Job Green 20

Ooh that's interesting Jude ;-) ;-)

The report in the Lancashire Evening Post refers to her running to her stepmother Mrs Spriggs wife of Andrew Spriggs. Not sure how she is a stepmother (or indeed what the relationship with Andrew Spriggs is) but they were running the Clough Springs Hotel at the time - coincidence?

Jude

It may be she married as Cough as she was hiding the fact she wasn't married but had children known as Clough Lots of cover ups occurred to cover tracks

Not seeing a death for Harry Clough either

In my own family one ladies birth was never reg in 1901 as her dad was an Army deserter and his wife would deny any knowledge of his whereabouts . A child coming along was a give away so she was never registered .caused all sorts of problems later on when she was eligible for OAP pension .


It does look your Gladys birth wasn't reg :-(

Yes I know she witnessed a murder - she told us all about it when we were children. It made the Times newspaper as it was quite grizzly.

She married George Holt 20/01/1930. She states she is a widow. She signs the certificate as Constantine Clough. I have the original cert (George states he is 53 - when in fact he was 63!)

Maybe she never registered the children or had them baptised because she was living 'in sin' with Harry Clough...

This is why I love family history!

PPS I know nothing about Harry Clough - he remains mysterious.

Hi Karen - pass a glass of that bubbly this way!

On Florence's marriage (registered 1931 per FreeBMD) what does it give as her status? (Spinster/divorced/widow)

Did you know she witnessed a murder in 1902? There's quite a bit in the newspaper archives. Can dig it out again if you don't have access.

from the way the 2nd marriage record is listed it looks like she stated she was Constantine but had been known as Clough .

It would seem she lived with Mr Clough but didnt marry him

PS the 1935 birth Holt/Constantine is my aunt Barbara - and yes still living ;-)

Sorry - had to stop for a glass of champagne with the family!

Florence Constantine born 07/07/1892
Gladys born 16/05/1918 - (date comes from her daughter) she married in 1936.
Florence married George Holt 20/01/1930 she names herself as Florence Constantine Clough on the wedding cert.
My father Ronald Holt was born in 25/05/1932
I always thought Dorothy (Dolly) was the eldest - she may not have been! Elsie was the youngest died 1968. aged 48.
Florence is living with her parents in Todmorden in 1911 census aged 18.

So she must have had the three girls before 1920.
It is eminently possible that she had them by other people and then they adopted the name Clough. My gran was a bit of a rum beggar! :-)

Thanks for all your help
Happy New Year x

PM sent to Karen to let her know how to return to her thread, and that she has replies requiring further info.

I'm not too sure about the 1933 death Dea posted - there are Holt/Constantine births in Lancs in 1932 and 1935 (won't post as possibly still living, Karen has them both in her tree)

EDIT: See Dea and I are thinking along the same lines, it's also possible that Karen has those as they may be relatives. Until she comes back and confirms it's difficult to pursue further.

Well, the above might not be her death as there were at least 2 children born with the correct mmname - one in 1932 and the other in 1935.

Although there was another marriage in 1927 which could account for either, or both of these births:

Marriages Jun 1927
CONSTANTINE Elizabeth H Holt Manchester S 8d 320
Holt Walter Constantine Manchester S. 8d 320

Dea x

This would be her second marriage (to George Holt) :
Marriages 1931:
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
CLOUGH Florence C HOLT George Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Oldham RM/193/50
CONSTANTINE Florence C HOLT George Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Oldham RM/193/50
HOLT George CLOUGH Florence C Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Oldham RM/193/50
HOLT George CONSTANTINE Florence C Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Oldham RM/193/50


Possible death?

Deaths Dec 1933
Holt Florence 40 Oldham 8d 1050

Dea x