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Hello folks. Need help please!

I have been trying to sort out this little mystery and my brain has reached meltdown, so any help gratefully received.

I am really sorry about the complexity, I have no doubt you will need to ask questions (should you be mad enough to get involved!).

It revolves around Frances Bray, shown in census below. On the image she is clearly Frances M., though obviously this could be an error, and the age appears to be correctly transcribed.

Her father Thomas was 'married' twice, the first time to Margaret Brush, then Eleanor (though I suspect he never married the latter, and I feel she might be his cousin Eleanor Judge as shown 1861 - though this does not affect anything).

There is a possible death of 1st wife Margaret in Hereford 1860.

Thomas and William were Margaret's sons. George was son of Eleanor. I have baptism records which confirm this.

I then decided to look for a baptism for Frances, to check her parentage. The only one I can find is Florence Margaret, born to Thomas and 1st wife Margaret, BUT this is in 1854. This is supported on Freebmd.

I cannot find the Frances born 1854 on 1861 census, and there is no evidence of a death - indeed, on the face of it she died in 1875 in Hereford.

Nor can I find a birth for Frances M Bray in 1861. As Thomas was widowed on the 1861 census she is presumably Eleanor's daughter, I just can't pin her down.

(I have checked Ancestry trees, no help there - one person has mixed her up with a Frances Eleanor Bray I think, who was actually born 1844 and had different parents).

Thanks to anyone who ventures into this!

Jan

1871 census

Name: Frances M Bray

Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Daughter (Child)
Father's name: Thomas Bray
Mother's name: Eleanor Bray

Where born: Herefordshire, England
Civil Parish: St Martin
Ecclesiastical parish: St Martin
County/Island: Herefordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Hereford
Sub-registration district: Hereford City
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Household schedule number: 119
Piece: 2700
Folio: 7

Thomas Bray 52
Eleanor Bray 47
Thomas Bray 26
William J Bray 19
Frances M Bray 10
George C Bray 8
William Bowen 16


1861 census

Name: Thomas Bray
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: 1819
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Herefordshire, England
Civil Parish: St Martin
Ecclesiastical parish: Hereford
Town: Hereford
County/Island: Herefordshire

Registration district: Hereford
Sub-registration district: Hereford City
ED, institution, or vessel: 12g

Household schedule number: 46
Piece: 1821
Folio: 59
Page Number: 6

Thomas Bray 42
Thomas Bray 16
William J Bray 10
Eleanor Judge 37

Name: Frances M Bray
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1871
Gender: Female
Age: 10
Relationship to Head of Household: Daughter
Birthplace: Lingen, Herefordshire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Hereford & Dore
Sub-District: Hereford City
Parish: St Martin
County: Herefordshire

Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Thomas Bray Self M 52 Lingen, Herefordshire
Eleanor Bray Wife F 47 Lingen, Herefordshire
Thomas Bray Son M 26 Lingen, Herefordshire
William J Bray Son M 19 Lingen, Herefordshire
Frances M Bray Daughter F 10 Lingen, Herefordshire
George C Bray Son M 8 Lingen, Herefordshire
William Bowen Nephew M 16 Lingen, Herefordshire

Name: Thomas Bray
Spouse's Name: Margaret Brusch
Event Date: 1842
Event Place: Dinedor, Hereford, England
Father's Name: John Bray
Spouse's Father's Name: William Brusch

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M14584-1 , System Origin: England-VR , GS Film number: 992146 , Reference ID: 2:R5CZLC

??????????

Name: Thomas Bray
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 17 Aug 1818
Christening Place: HUNTINGTON BY HOLMER,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name: John Bray
Mother's Name: Frances

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C14601-1 , System Origin: England-ODM , GS Film number:

Name: Frances Margaret Bray
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 1854
Christening Place: SAINT MARTIN, HEREFORD, HEREFORD, ENGLAND
Father's Name: Thomas Bray
Mother's Name: Margaret

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C13865-2 , System Origin: England-VR , GS Film number: 1040013 , Reference ID: - 2:1Z2XW3C

Anne, thanks for your replies, but I already have this info so don't do anything else!
I only need to sort out the Frances Bray issue.
I do appreciate your time of course.
Jan x

Name: John Charles Bray
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 04 Sep 1857
Christening Place: SAINT MARTIN,HEREFORD,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Thomas Bray
Mother's Name: Margaret

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C13865-2 , System Origin: England-ODM , GS Film number: 1040013

????????

Name: Thomas Bray
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 10 May 1818
Christening Place: LITTLE COWARNE,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name: John Bray
Mother's Name: Anne

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C13773-2 , System Origin: England-ODM , GS Film number: 992310

Anne, please stop!! You are going to a lot of trouble to find info I already have.
Jan x

?????????????

Name: Thomas Bray
Event Type: Death
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year: 1889
Registration District: Hereford
County: Herefordshire
Event Place: Hereford, Herefordshire, England
Age (available after 1866): 71
Birth Year (Estimated): 1818
Volume: 6A
Page: 287
Line Number: 210

Name: George Charles Bray
Spouse's Name: Margaret Jane Rees
Event Date: 02 Jul 1885
Event Place: Holmer,Hereford,England
Father's Name: Thomas Bray
Spouse's Father's Name: James Rees

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M13714-2 , System Origin: England-ODM , GS Film number: 1041605

sorry - I was on a roll :-D

Hi Jan

Have you considered this, I know the birth year is out but.........



Name:Frances Margaret Bray

Gender:Female

Baptism Date:1854

Baptism Place:Saint Martin, Hereford, Hereford, England

Father:
Thomas Bray

Mother:
Margaret

FHL Film Number:1040013

Reference ID:
- 2:1Z2XW3C

If it was Frances (1854) above then would she still have been a scholar in 1871 age 16/17??



Is this her as
Fanny Bray

1861 St Peter Hereford Commercial Rd d07g > 43
William West 1794 Widow.
Issilah west 25 Elementary teacher
Fanny Bray 7 1854 born St Martin Hereford ( same place Frances Margaret baptised)
Thomas Phillips born London 1841(He and Issilah married July 1861)

Maryb.

Thank you Gins ,- that is the daughter of Thomas and Margaret. I do not think it is the same as the Frances in 1871 though.

Mary, thanks a million, I am sure that is the Frances whose baptism Gins had put. I knew someone would find her! Brilliant.

I think it likely she is the Frances Margaret Bray who died 1875 aged 21.

So, all I need now us to locate a birth for the 2nd Margaret...!

Very grateful for all your help and suggestions.

Jan x

So, all I need now us to locate a birth for the 2nd Margaret

Do you mean Frances M?

hi
there is no birth for a margaret in 1861 if you can find her in 1881 census or a marriage might prove they made a mistake with the age in 1871 census i have looked but nothing showing

Oops Gins & Yvonne, apologies, all this has addled the brains!
I did mean Frances of course.
Jan x