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Back in 2019 you said that there was a rumour that Barbara had been in a nunnery at some stage.

Does the new paperwork mention anything about that?

Oh, yes - for our reference, here's the death of Charles Joseph - though the middle name isn't given:

SR District/Reg Area - Mitchelstown
Death of CHARLES OMAHONY in 1882
Name CHARLES OMAHONY
Date of Death 1882
Group Registration ID 6234722
SR District/Reg Area Mitchelstown
Deceased Age at Death 0

Died 30 August 1882, aged 5 months, at Kings Square, Mitchelstown.
Father: Thomas O'Mahony, land agent.


The patchiness of Irish records is so frustrating, and the changes of name don't help!
I fear you may have to accept that the proof you hope to find just isn't there.

As far as Barbara's birth is concerned, there's no certainty about the date.
Just to throw a wild possibility into this - in the event that Barbara/Vera's birth name might not have been either of those:

SR District/Reg Area - Dublin
Birth of EVA MAHONY on 10 February 1907
Name EVA MAHONY
Date of Birth 10 February 1907
Group Registration ID 671116
SR District/Reg Area Dublin
Sex Female
Mother's Birth Surname MAHONY

Born at Coombe Hospital.
Mother: Eva Mahony


Not that there's any way of proving or disproving it!

On the other hand, as already said, if the 1922 Dublin fire was when the birth cert was rumoured to have been burned, then there will be no record to find.

I hope this helps fill in any blanks
The 1891 census for Mahony's in Everton there is a daughter Evelyn M Mahony ( who I need to rule out as Barbara's mother). The head, Thomas C Mahony I think after looking at image is in fact Thomas O'Mahony, and wife Frances was born right year and place as grandmother Frances in1921. Son Charles H Mahony on this census born 1882 to Thomas O'Mahony and Frances Gibson and died same year( Ireland BMD records) On IrelandXO.com I recieved messages from Gwynneth who wrote at article about this family( O'Mahony Journal No 42 2019) after I read a post about Richard Manderville O'Mahony aka Fifi the Clown. Gywnneth told me that Charles Kingston O'Mahony was born in 1884 to Thomas and Frances after their son Charles H died in 1882 and she had proof, this was a year ago and haven't been able to contact her since. I really believe this family is related to Barbara, she believed Charles Kingson was her uncle. and she lived with Frances for a number of years, why would Frances take her in if she wasn't her grandaugther?There is so much more to say but I risk losing your interest. Thank you all.

Possibly Evelyn/Eveleen in 1901 ??

Evelyn O Mahony
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Evelyn O Mahony
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Ireland
Civil parish: Deighton
Search Photos:
View blank form
Ecclesiastical parish: Escrick St Helen
Town: Deighton
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: York
Sub-registration district: Escrick
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors:
Piece: 4449
Folio: 41
Page number: 3
Household schedule number: 12
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Richard Hobson 28 Head
Harriet Hobson 28 Wife
Thomas Hobson 1/12 Son
Evelyn O Mahony 16 Servant (domestic nurse)
James Geraght 20 Servant

Charles Kingston (DOB 24 March 1884 per 1939 Register, and born 1884 per his death record) doesn't seem to be the same person as Charles Joseph (mmn Gibson) - DOB 30 March 1882.

How did you know (or at least believe) that "Frances had a daughter Evelyn Mary O'Mahony born after Charles Kingston O'Mahony", which you posted yesterday?
Is that an assumption from the 1891 census, or is the info from somewhere else?

You also said "Frances O'Mahony later Lowe had several children with her first husband Thomas O'Mahony a land agent from Mitchelstown Cork."
Where did that information come from?

Did Thomas O'Mahony die before Frances married Thomas Lowe?
I don't see a likely death, assuming it to have been in Lancashire or Yorkshire.

Thanks for PM'ing me the letter .

Main details, for our reference:

Written at Oscott College, Birmingham on 30 Jan 1932, to Mr O'Mahony, about "this poor girl Vera Lowe alias Barbara Hall", who couldn't pay for "Mr Lowe's burial" because she couldn't prove who she was, in order to obtain funds.

"I certainly knew her by both names for the last five or six years."

"I made one mistake in my former letter. I thought that the girl was about 20 years of age. Now I learn from her that her age is 24 on Feb 12th prox. This would put her birth in early 1908."

To repeat some of what Nicola has already posted -

From letters written in 1926 by "a Mr John Forbes, and from the girl's own statements" -
"A Mrs Sinclair " sent her to John Forbes's wife "to be [something] and brought up."
"A Miss Sinclair said her name was Barbara Hall."
At about age 8, the Sinclairs put her into Carrs School, Dublin.

"From there she came to the Lowes and was led to understand that Mrs Lowe was her grandmother."
"She got her date of birth from a Mrs Irwin who kept a Home in Dublin but later went to America
"The girl thinks that you were a subscriber to Mrs Irwin's Home."

The writer is hoping that Mr O'Mahoney can tell him how to contact Mrs Irwin.
There's no suggestion that Barbara/Vera is any relation to Mr O'Mahoney.

I still can't see the birth of any Barbara or Vera Lowe (or Hall, with mmn Lowe or O'Mahony or variation) in Dublin, 1900-15.
Nor any birth of a Barbara or Vera Gibson.


Can't see Frances Gibson's birth either, with father Samuel.

The 1891 census for our reference - and unless Frances's maiden surname was Gibson , it may not be the right family. I don't think you've said what Frances's name was:

Frances Mahony
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Frances Mahony
Gender: Female
Age: 32
Relationship: Wife
Birth Year: 1859
Spouse:
Thomas C Mahony
Child:
Francis J Mahony
Charles H Mahony
Eveleen M Mahony
Birth Place: Kings County, Ireland [ aka Offaly ]
Civil parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Chrysostom
Residence Place: Liverpool, Everton, Lancashire, England
Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: South Everton
ED, Institution or Vessel: 29
Neighbors:
Piece: 2948
Folio: 55
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Thomas C [O on image] Mahony 51 Head - land agent, auct[ioneer], Limerick
Frances Mahony 32 Wife
Francis J Mahony 11 Son - Cork
Charles H Mahony 9 Son - Cork
Eveleen M Mahony 7 Daughter - Cork



Ancestry suggests that's this couple:

SR District/Reg Area - Mitchelstown
Marriage of THOMAS OMAHONY and FRANCES GIBSON
on 27 May 1880
Party 1 Name THOMAS OMAHONY [land agent, widower, 45]
Party 2 Name FRANCES GIBSON [governess, spinster, 27 ]
Date of Event 27 May 1880
Group Registration ID 2674437
SR District/Reg Area Mitchelstown

That Thomas's father was James T O'Mahony, gentleman, deceased.
Frances's father was Samuel Gibson, gentleman, alive.


This is the birth of the son Charles:

SR District/Reg Area - Mitchelstown
Birth of CHARLES OMAHONY in 1882
Name CHARLES OMAHONY
Date of Birth 1882
Group Registration ID 11559431
SR District/Reg Area Mitchelstown

Born 30 March 1882 at King's Square, Mitchelstown.
CHARLES JOSEPH OMAHONY
Father: Thomas O'mahony, land agent.
Mother: Frances O'mahony, formerly Gibson.


Birth of the son Francis:

SR District/Reg Area - Mitchelstown
Birth of FRANCIS OMAHONY in 1881
Name FRANCIS OMAHONY
Date of Birth 1881
Group Registration ID 8922219
SR District/Reg Area Mitchelstown

26 Feb 1881, at King's Square, Mitchelstown.
FRANCIS JOSEPH
Father: Thomas, land agent.
Mother: Frances, formerly Gibson.

I don't see the daughter's birth so far.


ADDED:
Looking back through this thread, I see that you did say that Frances's first husband was Thomas O'Mahoney, a land agent from Mitchelstown.
Had you taken that from the 1891 census - or somewhere else??

Aubrey Street, Everton, West Derby, Lancashire, England in 1891
I think this is Grandmother Frances Lowe/O'Mahoney with her first husband and children. Is the son Charles the Charles Kingston ( Mahony in this census) ? Could the younger daughter Evelyn M Mahony be the mother of Barbara Hall? the family think that Barbar's mother was a Mary O'Mahony, who was young when Barbara born in 1908 and the father was a high up English military man by the name of Hall.

Thomas Lowe died in 1932 that was the reason for the letter sent to Mr O'Mahony because Barbara/Vera couldn't claim insuranse to pay for funeral until she proved her identity.
I have sent the most relevant doc to you ArgyllGran. Thank you

I'll be happy to look at the documentation you mention.

Have you found Thomas and Frances's deaths?

Maybe?

Deaths Mar 1932 (>99%)
Lowe Thomas 78 Tamworth 6b 547

Frances in 1911.

Thomas isn't with her, but she's listed as "wife".

Info re Thomas has been written on the form, as if it applied to Frances, then scored out -
occupation - head working gardener, married 7 years.


Frances Lowe
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Frances Lowe
Age in 1911: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Parsonstown, Ireland
Civil Parish: Sutton Coldfield
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Street Address: 9 Riland Road Sutton Coldfield
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Head Working Gardener
Registration District Number: 385
Sub-registration District: Sutton Coldfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 09
Piece: 18380
Household Members:
Name Age
Frances Lowe 49


Parsonstown is in Co Offaly, which is stated as her birthplace in 1921 census.

"Mr Lowe" is on the Summary Book;

Lowe Mr
in the 1911 England Census Summary Books
Name: Lowe Mr
Number of Females: 1
Household schedule number: 110
Street Address: 9 Riland Road
Civil parish: Sutton Coldfield
Ecclesiastical parish: Sutton Coldfield Holy Trinity
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Residence Year: 1911
Registration district: Aston
Registration District Number: 385
Sub-registration district: Sutton Coldfield
Sub-Registration District Number: 6
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors:
Piece: 1104

There is also some documents found with the pleading letter to Mr O'Mahony. Madame Lowe performing as solo pianist in 1903, along lots of other bits of info. These new doc's are personal to my friend Charles ( Barbara's grandson). If anyone thinks they might be able to help by seeing them, I can send in private message.

Discounted the Lucan O'Mahony family as now have Barbara living with grandmother Frances with Barbara's story of her grandmother marrying the gardener and them both dying while she was living with them. This letter dated 1932 to Mr O'Mahony is asking for help as Barbara was left to pay for funeral and the insurance wouldn't pay out because she couldn't prove her identity. It's a very sad story, which just days ago I believed she had made up??

Charles K O'Mahony
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Charles K O'Mahony
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 24 Mar 1884 <<<<<<<<<<<
Residence Date: 1939
Address: Old Red Cottage Weston Grred
Residence Place: Esher, Surrey, England
Occupation: Auther
Line Number: 28
Schedule Number: 243
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: Cmpg
Borough: Esher
Registration district: 30.2
Inferred Spouse:
Julia C O'Mahony
Household Members (Name) Age
Charles K O'Mahony 55
Julia C O'Mahony 51

But, as you say, his birth reg can't be found.


The WRONG Charles whom you mentioned earlier, with parents James and Bridget, was born 20 January 1883, in Lucan, Celbridge, Dublin.
His middle name was Kirkham.
He enlisted in the 102nd Foot (R. Dublin Fusiliers) on 29 Sept 1902.

Charles Kingston O'Mahony gave his father's name as THOMAS when he married.

Oops........completely overlooked that one - hadn't expected it to be so 'late'



1921 Census Of England & Wales
Glenalough Elm Tree Avenue, Thames Ditton, Surrey, England
Charles Kingston O'Mahony Head Male 1884 37 Middletown Co Cork, Author Own Account
Julia Christine O'Mahony Wife Female 1888 32 Barnet, Hertfordshire, England - -
Amy M Goldsmith Servant Female 1896 25 Thames Ditton, Surrey, England General Domestic Servant Private


Unfortunately, the chances of finding proof of Barbara's birth must be minimal - you don't even know what surname to look for, or what the correct DoB was - and Irish records are not easy at the best of times.

Frances O.Mahony married Thomas Lowe in 1903 in Halifax. Her husband Thomas Lowe is a gardener which fits with Barbara's story the the grandmother ran off with the gardener. That's when her children disowned her. Barbara spoke about a uncle Charles kingston O'Mahony and she knew where he lived in Esher. Frances O'Mahony later Lowe had several children with her first husband Thomas O'Mahony a land agent from Mitchelstown Cork. One of which I believe was Charles Kingston O'Mahony. But have no proof as there is no registered birth. Barbara always said her mother was Mary O'Mahony, Frances had a daughter Evelyn Mary O'Mahony born after Charles Kingston O'Mahony. Can't get my head around this, if anyone wants to see the docs that have just been discovered please let me know. Thank you

If Barbara/Vera was supposedly Frances's granddaughter, Frances must have had at least one child before she married Thomas Lowe.
When/where did they marry? EDIT Not in Scotland, England or Wales - I've just checked.

Posting 1921 so we know exactly what it says - not that any of its info would have been verified at the time

17, Park Road, Sutton Coldfield, Staffordshire, England

Thomas Lowe Head Male 1854 67 Thurso, Caithness, Scotland Gardener Private
Frances Lowe Wife Female 1863 58 Offaly (King's), Ireland Proffessor Music Own Account
Vera Lowe Granddaughter, relative Female 1907 14 Dublin, Dublin, Ireland - -
Marie Capeley Visitor Female 1896 25 Walsall, Staffordshire, England Hotel Assistant Bell Hotel Gloucester
Charles Edwin Sherman Visitor Male 1892 29 Nottinghamshire, England Chemist Travelling -
Amy Marjory Sherman Visitor Female 1897 24 Handsworth, Staffordshire, England Home Duties -

'Vera's' parents are said to be 'both alive'. Her age is recorded as 14yrs 4months