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I would think it means that Edward & David are brothers :-)

Looking at that, it implies that David Hemfray is the brother of William Davies, or does it mean he was the brother of the lodger, Edward Hemfray? I think that's more likely because the birth places are different.

Annie

Of course there is the possibility that William & Elizabeth had married after Thomas' birth :-)

This appears to be the family in the 1861 Census

Name Elizabeth Davies
Age 46
Estimated Birth Year abt 1815 [abt 1815]
Relation Wife
Spouse's Name William Davies
Gender Female
Where born Presteigne, Radnorshire, Wales
Address: 25 Plantation Row
Civil Parish or Township Bedwellty
Ecclesiastical parish Tredegar
Town Ebbw Vale
County/Island Monmouthshire
Country Wales
Registration District Bedwelty
Sub-registration district Tredegar
ED, institution, or vessel 47
Household schedule number 73
Neighbors
Piece 4005
Folio 41
Page number 12
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
William Davies 46 b Eardisley, Herefordshire occ Rail Sawyer
Elizabeth Davies 46 Wife b Presteigne, Radnorshire
Thomas Davies 20 Son Llangatock, Breconshire, Wales
James Davies 18 Son Aberystruth, Monmouthshire, Wales
William Davies 16 Son Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales
Edward Davies 14 Son Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales
Elizabeth Davies 11 Daughter Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales
Mary A Davies 10 Daughter Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales
Sarah A Brown 15 Servant Clandown, Somerset, England
Edward Hemfray 19 Lodger Llanidloes, Monmouthshire, Wales
David Hemfray 21 Brother Llanidloes, Monmouthshire, Wales

Sadly, not our Thomas. This one's mother was Mary Davies, formerly Davies, of Tabor Meeting House, Brynmawr. Back to the old drawing board.

Annie

I can't see him in 1841 either. I'm going to get a digital image of his birth to see exactly where he was living. The registration district was Crickhowell but the parish was Llangatwg (Llangattock when anglicised). This area is quite confusing and became Bedwellty later. Watch this space!

Annie

On the image of the 1851 census (posted on 20 May by Alviegal),
Alfred's brother Thomas , 11, is said to have been born in Llangathoe, Brecon.

Presumably he would be with Alfred in 1841.

Google suggests "Llangathoe" is Llangattock in the Brecon Beacons.
That would be in Crickhowell reg district.

Possible birth??

DAVIES, THOMAS mmn DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1841 M Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 26 Page 298

But can't see him in 1841.

Finding Alfred in 1841 census would seem to be a priority

You're right, there are so many marriages that it's nigh on impossible to pick the right one and very expensive to keep buying the wrong certs.

Annie

If William Davies did indeed marry an Elizabeth Davies, there are numerous marriages to choose from. The surname Davies is so common that unless you have some other information about either William or Elizabeth that you know is correct, I'm not sure how you will know that you have the correct marriage :-)

As the birth for Alfred shows him to have been illegitimate, the marriage must have been later than 1839. At least you know the woman’s maiden name ;-) ;-) ;-)

The cert is here and it's not our Elizabeth. This one married William Davies in 1837 but she was 41 years old and a spinster. I'm going to look at the 1841 marriage.

Annie

I've only just come back to this. Thank you so much for your efforts. A lot to think about there. It bothered me that Elizabeth was a bit young to have been married twice.

Annie

I think you're correct about the Davies/ Coney couple. I think this is them in the census. William is a coach maker in 1841.

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Wye Bridge Street Street John, St John, Hereford & Dore, Herefordshire, England
Household members (10 people)
First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
William Davis Male 50 1791 Herefordshire, England
Elizabeth Davis Female 45 1796 Herefordshire, England
Fanny Davis Female 11 1830 Herefordshire, England
Jane Davis Female 9 1832 Herefordshire, England
Eliza Davis Female 6 1835 Herefordshire, England
Lucy Lane Female 44 1797 Herefordshire, England
Kate Lane Female 41 1800 Herefordshire, England
Ann Gouldsmith Female 35 1806 Herefordshire, England
Sarah Lewis Female 19 1822 Herefordshire, England



1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Wye Bridge, St Johns, Hereford, Herefordshire, England

Household members (5 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Davis Head
Married Male 62 1789 Coach builder emplg (7) men Hereford, Herefordshire, England
Elizabeth Davis Wife
Married Female 58 1793 - Hereford, Herefordshire, England
Jane Davis Daughter
Unmarried Female 19 1832 - Hereford, Herefordshire, England
Margaret James Servant
Unmarried Female 19 1832 House servant Hereford, Herefordshire, England
Charles Ballinger Aprentice
Unmarried Male 16 1835 Coach builder appr Hereford, Herefordshire, England


1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Newmarket Street, All Saints, Hereford, Herefordshire, England

Household members (4 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Davies Head
Married Male 72 1789 Retired from business Herefordshire, England
Elizabeth Davies Wife
Married Female 69 1792 - Herefordshire, England
Jane Davies Daughter
Unmarried Female 24 1837 - Herefordshire, England
Catherine Bailey Servant
Unmarried Female 38 1823 House servant Wilton, Herefordshire, England

Marriages Jun 1841
DAVIES Elizabeth Hereford &c 26 233
DAVIES William Hereford &c 26 233

Clifford is in this Registration area :-)

With the name being quite common it is difficult to pinpoint the correct marriage :-(

I can't see the family in the 1841 Census but there is this marriage

First name(s) William
Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth
Last name Davies
Spouse's last name Davies
Year 1841
Record set Herefordshire Marriages
Marriage date 21 Jun 1841
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Place Fownhope with Fawley
Subcategory Parish Marriages
County Herefordshire
Collections from England, Great Britain
Country England

There are lots of births of Davies/Davies children, with very common first names, in Abergavenny RD, (which included Bedwellty and Blaina) so there are several possibilities for the births of Edward, Elizabeth, Thomas, James, William, and Mary Ann (if she was registered just as Mary).

For instance, any of these below could be Mary Ann if the Davies/Davies theory is correct. There's no way of knowing, without buying lots of birth certs.

DAVIES, MARY DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in ABERGAVENNY Volume 26 Page 10

DAVIES, MARY DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in ABERGAVENNY Volume 26 Page 15

DAVIES, MARY DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in ABERGAVENNY Volume 26 Page 27

DAVIES, MARY DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in ABERGAVENNY Volume 26 Page 47

DAVIES, MARY DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in ABERGAVENNY Volume 26 Page 60

Following that idea -

???

Elizabeth Davies
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name Elizabeth Davies
Registration Year 1839 [1839]
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration District Hay
Inferred County Breconshire
Volume 26
Page 541
Records on Page (Name)
Elizabeth Davies
Jane Davies
William Davies
Thomas Prosser
Thomas Pugh
Jane Stephens


Or this one???

Elizabeth Davies
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name Elizabeth Davies
Registration Year 1846 [1846]
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration District Abergavenny
Inferred County Monmouthshire
Volume 26
Page 44
Records on Page (Name)
Elizabeth Davies
William Davies
Elvira Evans
Catherine Jones
Evan Jones
David Morgan
David Richards
Mary Thomas

I've been looking at this and I'm going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons :-0

I don't think the marriage of William Davies and Elizabeth Coney is the correct marriage mainly because William Davies is either a Sawyer or a Labourer in the 1851 & 1861 Censuses not a Coachbuilder, as given in the Marriage Announcement, which was a skilled trade.

I'm thinking that possibly Elizabeth's maiden name was also Davies. I've found this birth registration which could be Alfred

DAVIES, ALFRED -
GRO Reference: 1839 S Quarter in HAY UNION Volume 26 Page 301

Clifford, Herefordshire where Alfred was born was in the Hay Registration District and as there is no mother's maiden name it would imply that he was illegitimate and that his mother's surname was Davies.
The alternative is that Elizabeth had married another Davies who had died. :-0

Perhaps William & Elizabeth married in the 1840s rather than the 1830s :-)

Well done, everyone. Thank you so much. It does look as though Elizabeth may have been married previously, although she would have been very young. I think I'll have to accept that the children's births weren't registered. William's occupation on some censuses is sawyer. There's only one church in Eardesley so I thought to contact the vicar to see if there are any baptism records surviving. We don't live far from there so could go and investigate. I've had a lot of success in the past by contacting the present vicars. Just a bit of added info, son William was killed in a pit disaster in 1890 which took the lives of 167 men.

I was stuck in a rut with this but I'm looking at it with renewed vigour now, thanks to you.

Annie

Edit: I have ordered the marriage cert.

Census for our benefit.

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
233, Plantation Row, Bedwellty, Abergavenny, Monmouthshire, Wales

Household members (10 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Davies Head
Married Male 35 1816 Labourer Herefordshire, England
Elizabeth Davies Wife
Married Female 35 1816 Wife Radnorshire, Wales
Alfred Davies Son
Unmarried Male 13 1838 Labourer Clifford, Herefordshire, England
Thomas Davies Son
Unmarried Male 11 1840 Labourer Brecknockshire, Wales (should be Brecon)
James Davies Son
Unmarried Male 9 1842 Labourer Blaina, Monmouthshire, Wales
William Davies Son
Unmarried Male 7 1844 Scholar Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales
Elizabeth Davies Daughter
Unmarried Female 2 1849 Scholar Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales
Edward Davies Son
Unmarried Male 6 1845 At home Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales
Mary Ann Davies Daughter
Unmarried Female 0 1851 At home Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales
Ann Davies Niece
Unmarried Female 11 1840 Servant Herefordshire, England