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Nudging up for Florence61 :-)

Thanks Allan, wow a lot to read and digest but i will and get back to you

Florence
in the hebrides :-)

Hi Allan, have been reading through the thread but wondered as I cant see it anywhere, what was the name of joseph's wife(your gg grandma) and when did they marry?When was he and his wife born?

Do you know if joseph had any brothers or sisters?

I have just realised it's sunday with you so not sure if you are a churchgoer or not? Me personally im not so if you reply tomorrow that;s ok with me. However if you dont use the comp on sunday, I'LL wait til monday or whenever you have a minute.

Just for interest, I have an aunt in sydney(uncles wife) she is 83. her nephew corresponds with me quite often. My husbands family have cousins near Perth too. So it's a small world!

Take care
Florence :-)

Hello Florence.

I'm not a church-goer :-)

As to your query, I know nothing about Joseph Mortimer other than what was on my grandparents Marriage Certificate i e he was a coach trimmer, and was deceased before the marriage.

I have found a couple of marriages for Joseph Mortimer's, one of which took place in Stockport, an area where my grandparents lived and my Aunt was born. My father was born in Stretford

However, I have been unable to locate Joseph, if he was a coach trimmer, on any census.

I've had to rely on others to do overseas searches as I only have a British subscription to FMP and am not a member of Ancestry.

I will be re-joining the local Family History Society which has world-wide subscriptions to both sites. The Society is usually very busy and trying to access one of its computers can be frustrating :-(

If you don't mind my asking, whereabouts do your Husband's cousins live?

I live in Australind which is about 160 km south of Perth.

Allan

Hi Allan, his cousin, hubby and their 2 daughters live in Mandurah, Halls head. Dont really know if that is near you but that it is in western Australia.

It would seem there are quite a few hebridean islanders in the Perth area as well as other areas.I',m sure we have just as many sheep as you do :-D

I was only curious about joseph because if we can find him, no doubt we will find Clifford.Will let you know as soon as i find something new.

Florence
in the hebrides. :-)

Thanks, Florence

Mandurah is about 100 km north of us. It is a large City, and Halls Head one of its suburbs would be about 10km south of the City Centre, so only 90 kms from us.

Until they opened the new highway a few years ago we had to go through Mandurah to get to Perth. We frequently go to Mandurah. It is a very nice place

Regards

Allan

Good afternoon Allan,
have been searching around and rereading all the info. Do you have the birth cert for clifford?

Florence
in the hebrides :-)

PS going off to do dinner now so will look in later this evening.

Hi Florence

No I don't have Clifford's birth certificate: that's the problem.

I have nothing prior to his marriage certificate in 1904. The residential address given on that for both Clifford and Adelaide was (and still is) a hotel in Blackpool.

I can find no trace of Clifford on any official document prior to his 1904 marriage I know that he was an artist, described on his marriage certificate as 'Decorative' artist and on his death certificate as 'Decorative Artist (Cinema and Theatre)' so at one stage I'm assuming that he was a Set designer.

He also appears in a couple of trades Directories so I imagine that he was also an Interior Decorator.

Regards

Allan

Hello again

One thing that I did forget: I have a list of all Clifford's born between 1858 and 1861. I'm going through each one to see if their mother's remarried, but it's a long process, not to mention boring :-\ :-D

No success so far :-(

Regards

Allan

Hi Allan
Here in NZ the libraries have Ancestry and FMP free You don't have to book a computer just be a member

I would have thought Australia would be the same

are there any Clifford Mortimers with father Joseph born earlier or later than the putative birth year suggested by his marriage certificate??


I'm wondering if he lied about his age :-)

Hello Quinsgran and SylviainCanada

Quinsgran, I am a member of FMP, and also had access to Ancestry when I was a member of our local Family History Society (which I must re-join) but neither site has yielded any clue as to Clifford's early years

Sylvia, I've also checked on the age aspect, but , if anything, given their respective ages when they married, Clifford is likely to have lowered his :-) On the Marriage Certificate he was shown as 44 and his wife was 23. If anything, I think his wife may have pushed her age up by a few months :-S

I'm still exploring all avenues

Regards

Allan

I notice there is a Public Fmaily tree on Ancestry with Clifford and Adelaide ................


No mroe information than you have though!



For what it is worth, the tree owner is brendroyle


Did you see this when you had access to ancestry?

starting at the end and rather than read all the way through - !! - I will just mention about what SylviaInCanada said ...

the Ancestry family tree can be accessed at mundia.com for free
(register, sign in and search)
and a message can be sent through that system that the addressee receives in their Ancestry account inbox


the brendroyle tree has 21,475 people in it - !! - so who knows the connection ... but it looks like it is probably to Clifford and Adelaide's son in law (click on the little people icon attached to him in the family tree) ... although no that doesn't go far either ... hm, the connection could be to Adelaide ... there is a photo attached to the record of a child of her brother Albert ... oh of course that must be Allan's cousin

the other tree Clifford is in has two people in it ... Clifford and his father Joseph about whom nothing is known ... :-)

so I made my way through the thread a little and I found that Clifford Wallett fellow a little interesting and thought I would see whether anything more turned up about him

Clifford Wallett born abt 1843 with wife Fanny and children Elizabeth, Ada and William in 1871 who was living with Mortimers in 1881, and they were all circus performers

well Clifford and Fanny were never married and Ada for example was never born as far as I can tell

but Ada was baptised in 1865 in Newcastle upon Tyne
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NVLP-WLQ?cc=1473014

and she died in 1929 in North Carolina USA
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F3Z3-2V6

and she was in the US censuses with her husband and family and her mother Fanny Wallett in North Carolina
1910 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/ML3V-V5F
1920 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MZJ5-N17

saying she emigrated to the US in 1882
(although in 1910 it says she was born in 1870 and emigrated in 1890)

and these are the documents that people who have Ada in their trees on line have obviously compiled and taken their info from

familysearch also has the death of William in Michigan in 1930 for instance

Mundia is refusing to show me trees just now, it does that sometimes
but Ancestry shows several with Ada the daughter of Clifford Wallett
for Clifford they show a birthdate but no info after the 1881 census and no death

of course the fact that the 1890 US census is lost is no help
but here is Fannie in 1900
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MS13-DP5
... showing immigration in 1869 which is plainly silly
Ada shows as marrying 1883
so it seems they did emigrate in 1882 between the 1881 census and the 1883 marriage
and first lived in Virginia, then Indiana, then North Carolina

the fun bit in the family trees is the photos
one shows Ada posed in a ballet costume (I read the rumour of a Russian ballerina, in this thread!)
another is a Ringling Bros poster showing her as Madam Castello
(her husband was David Costello Loughlin and in 1900 he ran a Bar & Billiard Saloon)
there is another photo in the family trees showing Ada and her daughter and son 'working on the family equestrian act'

all of which has been completely fascinating (and thankfully not too time consuming) but it ends up here I now find after adding all this:
the story of Clifford born 1843 in Atherstone (with photos, and parents' names) in an Ancestry tree:

'Clifford, was a circus equestrian who had married Fanny Jeffries, a tightrope walker. The couple had three children, at least two of whom were included in a touring circus equestrian act. In 1882, with their two youngest children, Ada and William Frederick, Clifford and Fanny (who used the name "Madame Jeffries", derived from her maiden name, for her act) left for America where they settled in Henderson, North Carolina and became very well established with the American circuses, including the great Barnum & Bailey, as an equestrian act. In 1900/01, their son William Frederick and his wife were included in the Barnum & Bailey tour of Europe where, in Vienna, their daughter Florence May Lillo Wallett was born. Ada performed as "The Great Zazell", across America and in several other countries as the first woman to be shot from a cannon in America.'

that also appears at Mundia in the tree of suetonr

so that is the story of a person who seems not to be Clifford Mortimer :-)

you know Allan ... I am going to recommend what I start to sound like a broken record saying ...

DNA testing

you are a son of a son of Clifford and I don't know the details but you could be the only male line descendant unless your dad had a brother who had a son for example, or you have a son - and if you are the only male-line descendant then you are the only person whose DNA could be used for this

the male line, YDNA, is the way to trace paternity (which is supposed to match surname but that is often the issue!)

it is only helpful to test if someone who matches has also tested and of course that is a very big gamble ... it paid off wildly for me when I found a very close match for a male ancestor's male line which was very iffy up to then ... and still is, but this gave me a whole new surname to investigate ... but the chance of finding such a match is not high of course

(it's also possible there just are no other male line descendants from Clifford's father or grandfather or what have you ... that is the case on my other side I am quite sure, where a long surname line in a little village eventually came down to one male person, my 4xgreat grandfather, who had only one son who had only one son (who then multiplied rather extremely in the course of two marriages, so the YDNA is now fairly secure!) ... but it means there just are no other descendants of men in that line born before 1750ish for me to find - but I might find people descended from a common ancestor back before records and surnames)

however as more people test all the time, you just never know when a related person might turn up

I have used Family Tree DNA which maintains surname projects with volunteer administrators who are almost all very helpful and at least somewhat knowledgeable

there is in fact a Mortimer surname project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Mortimer/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Mortimer/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
... with lots of variety of ancestry :-)

you can join a surname project but at the same time the site will search all testees to see whether there is a match no matter the surname, which is how mine was found

think about it - it is fun if nothing else! and I can explain more about what to do (and also how to protect privacy) and what it might find you, if you like

JoonieCloonie and Sylvia

Many thanks for the information re Mundia. I wasn't aware of that particular site.

I am registered with Ancestry but I have not yet taken out a subscription. I did try to start my family tree on there a few years ago but did not get very far. That is possibly the second family tree that Sylvia refers to.

Having now been on to the mundia site it appears the brendroyle has been focussing on the Coe side of the family and has a bit more information than I have including marriages and descendants of Adelaide's siblings so that is helpful, but Clifford appears to stop with Joseph.

I think that both brendroyle and myself would have got Clifford's father's name form Clifford's marriage certificate and his place of birth from the 1911 census.

However, I have sent a message to brendroyle to see if he/she has any further information.

JoonieCloonie, I will pm you re the DNA testing

Once again my thanks to you both

I have come across this intriguing entry in the 1891 Census.

Alexander was boarding at Blenheim Road, Acton, Brentford together with a Charles Mortimer who may be Alexander's older brother, but who is listed as 'living on own means'


First name(s)
Alexander

Last name
Mortimer

Relationship
Boarder

Marital condition
Single

Gender
Male

Age
36

Birth year
1855

Occupation
Artist

Birth town
-

Birth county
-

House name
-

Street
Blenheim Road

Parish
Acton

Town
Acton

County
Middlesex

Country
England

Municipal ward
-

Parliamentary borough
Ealing

Ecclesiastical district
St Michaels & All Angels

Registration district
Brentford

Enumeration district
-

Series
RG12

Piece number
1038

Folio number
3

Page
12

Record set
1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Category
Census, land & surveys

Record collection
Census

Collections from
Great Britain

Just done some more research. The above Alexander is shown on the 1911 census still living with his brother, and still single. Tragically, the brother, Charles, is shown as being totally blind from the age of 12.

So, that rules out a name change as Clifford was married in 1904.

Ah well, back to the records


:-D

intriguing yes, and had to wonder whether they might have had another brother ...

the 1861 census does not match up with supposed details though


Registration district: Newington
Civil Parish: Edinburgh St Cuthberts
County: Midlothian
Address: 6 Bruntsfield Pl

John Martimer 51 born England, Jeweller & Clothier Employing 10 Men & Boys
Elizabeth A Martimer 12
Frederick Martimer 10
Charles Martimer 8
Alexander W Martimer 6
Olivia C M Martimer 4
Mary Martimer 49 sister
John E Martimer 12 nephew
Isabella Morgan 22
Janet Graham 60
Helen Carstairs 19


1881 in Wimbledon

George Mortimer 35
Helen M. Mortimer 32
Ethel M. Mortimer 9
Winifred M. Mortimer 7
Alexander W. Mortimer 26 brother, art student painting
Elizabeth M. Tinker 16


can't seem to find them in 1871 to see whether there might be a brother born after the 1861 census ......


oh my goodness, look who I did find though, oh my goodness


1871

Name: C G Mortimer
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Buckinghamshire, England ('Buckingham')
Civil Parish: Bury
Town: Bury
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Bury

OCCUPATION: SCENIC ARTIST with addition THEATRE [something]

oh my goodness???


could that be

Births Jun 1850 ?
Mortimer Male Aylesbury 6 356

1891

Name: C Mortimer
Age: 43
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Visitor
Where born: London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Reigate
Town: Reigate
County/Island: Surrey
Registration district: Reigate

Occupation: DECORATOR

Alfred Hooker 42 gardener born Dorking Surrey
Harriett A Hooker 46 born Horsham Sussex
Alfred Hy Hooker 15
Florence M Hooker 13
Albert J Hooker 11
C Mortimer 43


could this maybe be 'CG' in 1851? the person who corrected the name does not give any details

Name: Gaings Mortimer
[Gaius Mortimer]
Age: 10 Mo
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Relation: Grandson
Where born: Stoke, Bedfordshire, England
[should probably be read as Bucks, Stoke Hammond and Stoke Mandeville are in Aylesbury reg dist?]
County/Island: Buckinghamshire
Registration district: Aylesbury

William Mortimer 46 ag lab born Bucks
Penelope Mortimer 49 born Oxfordshire
Henryetta Mortimer 14 born Cuddington (Aylesbury dist)
Henry Mortimer 12 born Chearsley (Aylesbury dist)
Gaings Mortimer 10 Mo



https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKB4-JBG

Name: Gaius Mortimer
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 28 Jul 1850
Christening Place: LOWER WINCHENDON, BUCKINGHAM, ENGLAND
Mother's Name: Mary Mortimer
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: J07935-2

this could account for the mythical Joseph, carriage painter :-)

there is no further record of this person after 1851 census

he is in a familiy tree at familysearch.org showing him as daughter of Mary Ann (1830 Lower Winchendon Bucks) who was daughter of William Mortimer (1803, christened Mortimore) and Penelope Freeman (1800)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/S5B4-73H

if this might be your Clifford, YDNA might be the only chance of identifying his father :-D


all of the 'Gaius's born in Buckinghamshire 1848-1851 are accounted for either in infant deaths (Lawrence, Kemptster) or in the 1851 census (Sanders, Creed, Horn, Rose, Welford)



Mary in 1851

Name: Mary Mortimer
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1831
Relation: Servant
Where born: Whmetandon, Oxfordshire, England
> Civil Parish: Stoke Hammond
County/Island: Buckinghamshire
Registration district: Leighton Buzzard


for the geography,
Nether Winchendon, Chearsley and Cuddington are a little cluster just west of Aylesbury
Stoke Mandeville is on the southeastern fringe of Aylesbury
(Stoke Hammond is north north east of Aylesbury past Leighton Buzzard)