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In addition to my previous request, I am also investigating my ancestor, Robert Freeman, who I believe was a bigamist.
He was born in Cold Aston near Northleach in Gloucestershire in 1805 and married Elizabeth Barnett in 1826 in Bourton on the Water. After my great grandfather, John Freeman, was born in 1837, Robert disappears from the records in Gloucestershire. However a Robert Freeman appears in Staffordshire, living with a Mary Ann whom he called his "wife" and a family. This Robert said he was born in Northleach or Aston in Gloucestershire, which fits with my ancestor. I believe that these two Robert Freemans are the same person, but I cannot definitely prove it. I have had colleagues search in various record offices for me but they cannot find definite proof either. The evidence I have suggests that initially at least, Elizabeth believed that Robert was still alive. Was he in fact living with two families, one in Gloucestershire and one in Staffordshire?
Has anybody got any ideas?

Ro.W

In 1851 Elizabeth says she's married

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Aston Blank, Northleach, Gloucestershire, England

Print transcription View image Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Elizabeth Freeman Head Married Female 59 1792 At Farmers Work Clapton, Gloucestershire, England Transcription
John Freeman Son - Male 14 1837 Ag Lab Aston Blank, Gloucestershire, England

Unless you can find a 'marriage' for Robert to the woman he was living with in Staffordshire, he can't be accused of being a bigamist.

If he didn't 'marry', he was merely an adulterer

What I didn't say was that we did find a Robert Freeman who was sent to prison for 12 months for bigamy in 1830, though I am not sure if that was my Robert Freeman. This was however before any of his Gloucestershire children were born.
I do take your point about the difference between bigamy and adultery.

Ro.W

Name: Charles Freeman
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 20 Jul 1828
Christening Place: ASTON BLANK,GLOUCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Robert Freeman
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02678-3 , System Origin: England-ODM , GS Film number: 856953

Name: John Freeman
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 16 Apr 1837
Christening Place: ASTON BLANK,GLOUCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Robert Freeman
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02678-3 , System Origin: England-ODM , GS Film number: 856953

Name: Mary Ann Freeman
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 31 Jan 1830
Christening Place: ASTON BLANK,GLOUCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Robert Freeman
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02678-3 , System Origin: England-ODM , GS Film number: 856953

????????????

Name: Robert Freeman
Event Type: Marriage
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year: 1864
Registration District: Walsall
County: Staffordshire
Event Place: Walsall, Staffordshire, England
Volume: 6B
Page: 781
Line Number: 14

Robert Freeman probably married one of the following people

Name: Mary Ann Jackson

just for info when the threads get separated
the 'previous request' isn't related
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1344691
so no duplication problem :-)


if your Robert was the one convicted of bigamy in 1830, that would make it unlikely he was the father of any of the children baptised as his

that is not inconceivable, as it is possible both spouses went on to form families with new partners


Roland I don't see a Robert Freeman born Northleach in any census

is this the person you are referring to, in 1871?

Name: Robert Freeman
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Freeman
Where born: Aston, Gloucestershire, England
Town: Walsall
County/Island: Staffordshire
Registration district: Walsall
Robert Freeman 65 labourer
Mary Ann Freeman 53
Fanny Freeman 22
Matilda Freeman 20
Robert Freeman 17
Ann Elizh Hogan 20

aha, here is why I couldn't find him at Ancestry as born Northleach

the household is in Walsall in 1861

Robert Freeman 32 born North Leach
Mary Freeman 43
Fanny Freeman 12
Matilda Freeman 10
Robert Freeman 6

and in Handsworth in 1851

Robt Freeman 42 born 'Northleack'
Mary Freeman 32
Fanny Freeman 2
Matilda Freeman 3 Mo

this is Elizabeth Freeman in Aston Blank, Gloucestershire, in 1841

Elizabeth Freeman 40
Mary Freeman 10
John Freeman 4
Charlse Freeman 11

(the children whose baptisms AnnCardiff posted above)


all just for the ref of others wanting to help, it is wise to present all the info so we know what you know :-)


it seems unlikely he was the man convicted of bigamy but he does resemble the man in Walsall

I would get the birth cert for

Births Mar 1851
Freeman Matilda W. Bromwich 18 600

to see what the mother's name was and this could help find whether there was a marriage, or she was previously married, etc.

Note that Mary Ann Freeman was born in Withington Worcestershire per 1871 census (Whittington or Wittington in other censuses) and both Whittington and Withington Gloucestershire were in Northleach reg dist


there is no other Robert & Mary Freeman couple in Walsall reg dist in 1871 so that could possibly be them belatedly marrying

can you tell us when Elizabeth Freeman died?
it was not uncommon for couples to marry late in life when one or both were finally free to marry after being widowed

but

Deaths Jun 1880 ?
Freeman Elizabeth 82 Northleach 6a 234

fits with her stated age in 1871

Name: Elizabath Freeman
Age: 73
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1798
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Clapton, Gloucestershire, England
Civil Parish: Aston Blank
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Registration district: Northleach
Thomas Kilby 22
Mary Kilby 33 = Mary Freeman daughter of Elizabeth
Charles Freeman 15 son of Mary
William Freeman 10 " "
Caroline Killby 1
Elizabath Freeman 73


so Elizabeth outlived Robert

Deaths Mar 1873
Freeman Robert 62 Walsall 6b 457

??????????????

Name: ? Freeman
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1891
Gender: Female
Age: 19
Relationship to Head of Household: Daughter
Birthplace: Walsall, Staffordshire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Walsall
Sub-District: Walsall
Ecclesiastical Parish: St Pauls
Parish: Walsall Foreign
County: Staffordshire

AnnCardiff that record appears to be Minnie L Freeman (name corrected at Ancestry from 'Munice') daughter of John and Sarah, born 1872 Walsall - ?

John Freeman 51 born c1840 Walsall
Sarah Freeman 50
Frank Freeman 23
Munice Freeman 19
Florence Freeman 17
Arthur Freeman 14
Bertha Freeman 9

so not related?

oops :-S

If you find 2 marriages, we have to hope that Robert signed his name at both.

A comparison of signatures might help prove that it is the same man.

Gwyn

Hi Roland, How do you know that the Robert Freeman that married Elizabeth Barnett was born 1805 at Cold Aston?

I see the pallot's marriage index listing him from Clapton (which possibly refers to Clapton on the Hill, near Northleach), but do you have any evidence of his age?

County Gloucestershire
Place Bourton-on-the-Water
Church St. Lawrence
RegisterNumber
MarriageDate 07 Apr 1826
GroomForename Robert
GroomSurname FREEMAN
GroomParish Of Clapton
BrideForename Elizabeth
BrideSurname BARNETT
BrideParish Of Clapton
Notes M At Bourton

(also on below)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

Chris :)

Thank you for all your replies. Although I was familiar with a lot of the information you gave me there are some new items that are worth following up. For instance, I had never been able to find a marriage record between Robert and Mary Ann and only assumed they had married because she was recorded as "wife" in the census. So the marriage in 1864 is worth following up. Unfortunately, I cannot compare signatures because Robert was illiterate and only put a cross in the parish register when he married Elizabeth.
I agree that the Robert Freeman convicted of bigamy was probably not my ancestor, although it is still just about possible. (His daughter, Mary Ann was conceived before he was imprisoned and John was not born until seven years later well after he was released) However, I am fairly certain that the Robert Freeman who was living in Walsall was my ancestor. The key may be the 1864 marriage certificate. Was his father Thomas Freeman? and can I find a Mary Ann Jackson who was born in Whittington, Worcestershire, Herefordshire or even Gloucestershire?

Ro.W

perhaps you missed what I said Roland:


I would get the birth cert for

Births Mar 1851
Freeman Matilda W. Bromwich 18 600


there is little point in going on a hunt for a Mary Ann Jackson when you can easily find out the name of the Mary Ann living with that Robert Freeman in the censuses from 1851 onward by getting her daughter's birth certificate

(I did look for a Mary Ann Jackson in 1841 who would fit, to no avail)


your Robert Freeman's wife Elizabeth was still living in 1864 (and Robert then predeceased her, or at least the Robert who matches his info did) so it would seem odd for your Robert to pick that time to marry again ... unless perhaps Mary Ann had a pre-existing marriage and her husband died, and Robert had simply not told her about his previous marriage, or some such thing ...


btw Roland you being familiar with information doesn't help people help you ... we need to have all the information you have ... seing what you see (the censuses etc) is what we need, rather than just a brief summary, so we have all the facts for looking for more info :-)

Sorry I misunderstood you. If you can get me a birth certificate, then yes please.
With regards to the rest of the information I was trying to say thank you to the people who have helped me and briefly summarise the situation. I can't add any more because that is really all I know. I've a feeling we'll never be able to say conclusively whether Robert Freeman was a bigamist or adulterer, although it looks likely, but I was wondering if someone may have had just that bit of information that would prove it one way or the other. I think I was being overly optimistic.
Any way thank you to everybody. You have been very helpful.

Ro.W

you have to order birth certificates and pay for 'em Roland :-D ... we all do, sometimes quite a few, to find out things like parents' names

even if you found a baptism record that had been transcribed and made available on line, it would almost never give the mother's surname

here's where to get certificates

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

(never from any third party ordering service which will charge at least double for no more service)

it seems to me that knowing Mary Ann's name is the only way you might find information that could connect that Mary Ann to your Robert, for instance a marriage

I think it looks very much like your Robert and Elizabeth went their separate ways, for whatever reason, and Robert started over with Mary Ann

if you could find descendants of the Robert & Mary Ann couple somehow, that could help

I guess your John born c1837 was born just too early for his birth to be registered, unfortunately

oh, but his christening shows Robert as his father:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NPR3-YHD

Name: John Freeman
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 16 Apr 1837
Christening Place: ASTON BLANK,GLOUCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Robert Freeman
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02678-3

you can click on that batch number and search for Freeman baptisms in the same batch
Charles and Mary Ann are also shown there

not proof positive Robert was John's father of course

the only way to have that proof is to have a male-line descendant of John (son's son's son ...) compare YDNA with a male-line descendant of Robert -- for instance of Charles the older son (assuming he was Robert's son), or of a male-line descendant of Robert's father or brother ...

and as for the second family, to see whether that is the same Robert Freeman, a male-line descendant of that Robert, that is of his son Robert, would need to test to see whether he matches the descendant of John or Charles

I am a genetic genealogy hobbyist ... there is a Freeman surname project at FTDNA, the company where most people looking for matches test and join projects

https://www.familytreedna.com/project-join-request.aspx?group=Freeman

it seems to run its project offsite at

http://www.carnicle.com/DNA_Project/

and like many of them it is heavily USA-centric -- because most people in projects are in the USA looking for their British roots

in fact the website says ' we continue our search for a sibling line of descent in England to finally give us the "real" lineage' ... 'We have had our first Freeman descendant from England become a member of our project. Although we did not find any familial ties to our current testees...we continue to hold out the expectation that someone will join and make the leap across the pond.'

this shows the ancestral info for the people who have tested in the project

http://www.carnicle.com/DNA_Project/test2.htm

you might find it interesting in any case :-) but of course how interesting would depend on whether your John has male-line descendants

YDNA (male-line) testing is the most accurate way of finding close relationships but autosomal testing for cousin relationships ('Family Finder' test at FTDNA) can also be tried


anyway I would spend the money and buy the Matilda Freeman birth certificate as a step toward trying to unravel who Robert and Mary Ann were, and you can come back to the thread here if you do and let us know what it says!

by the way in case you don't have them, these are the baptisms of the children of Robert and Mary/Mary Ann

http://tinyurl.com/nsjsnyx