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I actually got to speak to a descendant of the Lilian M Kelly who married George E Freeman. Their daughter Lilian A M Freeman born 1938 cannot remember her mother ever living in Camberwell - so I suppose I can rule out that Lilian Kellly. I still wonder though.
Thanks for trying to help.
Jennifer

Oh tanks

You do realise it is George E?? For some reason he has got detached from the Lillian entry.
Jan

"Run off with anr = run off with another!. Henry Frederick Bass is on the 19ll census at 25 Arbour Square Stepney with his wife- no children Mary Ann Bass. After that I have not managed to pin him down until 1920 at 27 Philip Road Camberwell. Thanks for the above. On free bmd it shows a marriage of Lilian M Kelly to a Freeman 1d 192 in Southwark March 1918 but I don't know how to find his Christian name. Now I must throw a couple of chops under the grill or there will be a divorce!!! Thanks for your continuing interest!
J.

If you look for spouse name, you get this:

Marriages Mar 1918 (>99%)
Flynn Louisa Olney Southwark 1d 193
Freeman George E Kelly Southwark 1d 193
Hopkins Albert Renwick Southwark 1d 193
Olney Richard Flynn Southwark 1d 193
RENWICK Maud A Hopkins Southwark 1d 193

(Marriages Mar 1918 (>99%)
Griggs William McCarthy Southwark 1d 192
Kelly Lillian M Freeman Southwark 1d 192
McCarthy Frances Griggs Southwark 1d 192)

I can't find Henry before 1921.

Jan

PS sorry to be dim, who is 'anr'?

Hello again. I have another idea to bounce off you brummiejan. Say for instance that the bride did run off with anr. (family rumour is that it was a policeman from Arbour Square police station - where the couple lived in 1911). The bridesmaid Lillian Kelly could be the person listed as marrying someone called Freeman in Southwark in March 1918.(For some reason I can't find his christian name on freebmd) In December that year a child was born named Lilian A M Freeman - mother's maiden name Kelly. All these Lilians and variations of Mary,Marian, etc could have moved in with our Hen Fred and started using his name Bass. They had all gone by the time Hen Fred died in Sept 1959. What do you think about this lates supposition of mine please? :-S

Yes Jan - Every chance she is coming home for a reconciliation. She turned up there in 1932 and 1935 was the last time she was listed. Her disappearance coincides with the appearance of the Lilian. If she split from Hen Fred between 1911 and him appearing at no.27 in 1920, I suppose she could have had a child with anr. So many possibilities! That child may have the name Bass (if the daddy did a runner). Was that child Lilian? so my idea of the bridesmaid moving in in 1935 may be wrong.
The Lilian may have been there earlier but too young for the electoral register. As regards John O'Keefe - he vanished. I have done tree searches and put a separate post on here but no luck in pinning him down.
I wonder if you could find Henry Frederick Bass between the years of 1911 and 1920 on the voters lists? Another thought - Hen Fred was a lorry driver so may have brought a floosie from some other part of the country to set up home with. The possibilities are endless. :-S

John J O'Keefe is living at Philip Rd 1963.
Jan

Just to confirm, Ann Mary/Mary Ann at Philip Rd 1932-5 Lilian Marion re-appears 1936.

I do wonder about that Ann Mary in 1935 though - any chance she is his wife?
Jan

Yes Jan. 27 Philip Road all through the twenties and up to his death in 1959. We know for a fact that Hen Fred's marriage was rocky but don'k know where Mary Ann went to. However, as her best pal Lilian may have taken up with Hen Fred after Mary Ann went - it may be her. What was her real name before she adopted his? I have a vivid imagination. The reversal of christian names does not help does it? Also Mary could be used instead of Marian maybe?.
I don't have access to the ancestry london voters listings at the moment so maybe some kind person can have a look for a Lilian Kelly in the years before the Lilian appeared at no.27 - in 1924. Is she Lilian Mary or Mary Lilian? If she was the best pal of Mary Ann Connor, it could be that these ladies shared him! No telly in those days!

Did he live on Philip Road? If so, the name of the woman living with him 1928 is Mary Lilian, but in 1935 is Ann Mary!
There is also Lilian Marian and Marian Lilian recorded.
What a mystery you seem to have.
Jan

The couple who got married did not have any children and it is her disappearance that is being investigated by her niece and myself as niece of the bridegroom. (Henry Frederick Bass born 1885 and Mary Ann Connor born Whitechapel in August 1888). We are reluctantly beginning to accept that Mary Ann Bass took up with another man and used his name and her death was registered in that name. The only Mary Ann Bass death for someone at the correct age was the wrong person.
On thread 1345513 I mentioned that the bredegroom Henry Frederick BAss lived in Camberwell until his death in 1959. For a good few years there was also a Lilian Mary Bass at the same address. I had hoped there would be a way of finding out if this Lilian Mary was the same person as their friend Lilian Kelly. The informant on the death cert of Hen Fred Bass was someone called John J O'Keefe describing himself as nephew and JoonieCloonie on 11 Oct made me think that the informant was a son from the Lilian M Bass. There is a connection - I hope - but where. My dodgy wrist is limiting my time on here at the moment. Thanks to anyone who is taking an interest. It is much appreciated. :-D

for background, see also

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1345513

Jennifer


never be too hasty to dismiss a record, especially a census record on the basis of a different spelling .........................

the names were written down by an enumerator who would use the spelling that he was familiar with .......... and if a family member did not ask to see what he had written, then .....................................


also remember that many of our ancestors were illiterate, or all but illiterate, especially as you get further and further back in time

She might reappear as a god-mother to any children of the couple.
How well do you know the family?

I agree - the presence of an extra 'l' is irrelevant, so don't base anything on it.
Jan

The Lilian that brummiejan found in 1881 appears to be Lillian in1891, so I think you are being too hasty to rule out any Lilian/Lillian on the grounds of one census spelling.

Thanks for that. I have done tree searches so hope I get some answers

The other witness might be this one given the area if you want to follow him up

Marriages Mar 1913 (>99%)

Goring Catherine Kirby Whitechapel 1c 343

Kirby Michael J Goring Whitechapel 1c 343