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Max, welcome to Genes and the boards.

You have added to a very old thread and it is unlikely that Nicola will spot your posts. Genes do not notify you if posts are added but do for pms.
Click on her name and send Nicola a pm. If she has kept her email address Genes will notify her.

ROBERT KIBBLE HERVEY

I am researching Mr Robert Kibble Hervey as he brought the game of Rugby Football with him (including 6 rugby balls) to Scotch College Melbourne Australia during the Gold Rush where he was a School Master of Classics at Scotch College between 1856 till 1863. The game he introduced went onto become Australian Rules Football.

ELIZABETH COLLEGE Registry . 133 TRINITY TERM, 1842.
729. Hervey, Robert Kibble—born at Wigan, June 15, 1829; son of Eobert Hervey, of Lee Hall, Cheshire ; left 1845.

Studied at the Worms Gymnasium, 1847-8, and passed the qualifying examination for the University of Worms; but entered University College, London; B.A., 1851; Barrister-at-Law of the Inner Temple, 1855; went to Australia and was engaged as a Master in a Scotch College there; returned to England after a few years, and practised as a Conveyancer and Equity Draughtsman till 1890, when he retired; residence, Petersneld, Hants.

INFANCY OF FOOTBALL.TO THE EDITOR OF THE ARGUS.
Sir, — In his letter this morning Mr. Worrall states a football club was first formed at Scotch College in the year 1860. Unless Mr. Worrall is speaking of the formation of a club in some technical sense unknown in school life, it is quite certain that his statement is incorrect. As a matter of fact, the game was introduced into the school by one of the masters, a Mr. Hervey, from Rugby, at some time in the fifties. The exact date is unknown, but it was not later than 1858. Indeed old boys of the school have always chimed that Mr. Hervey was the pioneer of football in Victoria. It is not till August 7, 1858, that we have an authentic record of what has come to be considered the first public school football match. It was announced in the "Morning Herald" in the following terms :—
"A grand football match will be played this
day between the Scotch College and the Church of England Grammar School, near the M.C.C. ground. Luncheon at the pavilion. Forty a side. The game to commence at 12 o'clock." The game was to be won by the side that first scored two goals. After three hours' play. Scotch scored a goal, and shortly afterwards Grammar scored one. Night put an end to the struggle. The game was continued on August 21, and again on September 4, but no further score was resulted, and the game was drawn. These particulars are taken from the records compiled by the late Mr. Donald Morrison. Yours, & c.,
W. S. LITTLEJOHN. (Principal of Scotch College Melbourne)

Hervey, Robert Kibble, B.A. London Univ. 1851 and a member of Convocation, equity draftsman and conveyancer, a student of the Inner Temple 14 Jan., 1852 (then aged 22), called to the bar 26 Jan., 1855 (eldest son of Robert Hervey, Esq., of Lee Hall, Cheshire); born ?, 1830; married 26 March, 1864, Mary Clayton, eldest dau. of J. H. Law, Esq., of Bowdon, Cheshire.
143, Holland Road, Kensington, W.; 11, Old Square, Lincoln's Inn, W.C.

It's just that I live in hope that something, somewhere may be visible when there is more background information!!
And thank you for the 1891; I hadn't got around to that census year for them yet so you've done it for me. TVM.

Nicola new records don't suddenly become available because you find a new diary entry :-)

the available records are all just the same as we have all been looking in already

you know you can actually do the same searches as anybody else at Ancestry and FMP it's just that you can't see record details without a subscription (not sure whether you have subs or not)

I don't remember but I assume you have the household in Paddington in 1891, 197 Portsdown Rd

Henry B Hanna 51 colonel in the army retired
Rosamond Hanna 51
Martha E Barton 29
Rose Sheaman 20

I am now deep into transcribing the Indian journal and I'm on page 102 of 114. It's slow going!

On page 102, my ancestor writes in January 1890: . . . "letters from Rosamond [her sister, married name of HANNA] telling of her arrival in London, & a week later of their having taken a house!"

So I'm looking for a ROSAMOND HANNA born 1838 who sailed from India to England towards the end of 1889.

Are we any closer on this one?

JoonieCloonie your work on my behalf is boundless! I do realise that the topic obviously interests you, but nevertheless you do go above and beyond. Thank you so much.

I will digest all the links in your last post and try to make it 'fit' if I can.

Still ploughing my way through the journal - every page reveals something new. Via some considerable googling by me, I have discovered that my GGG aunt - the author of the journal - met the then ten year old William Beveridge in India. She writes that he had contracted severe malaria in Calcutta and now was up in the hills with his family. While she was there, he was 'brought down for the first time to sit outside and rest'. He of the Beveridge Report. And so on ..........

:-)

quite possibly the ship was a coastal vessel and she was simply travelling from one Indian port to another

this might be interesting, on the coastal steamers

http://www.poheritage.com/our-history/company-guides/british-india-steam-navigation-company

you might also find the book 'Green Gold: The Empire of Tea' interesting.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Green-Gold-Empire-Alan-Macfarlane/dp/0091895456/

it's about the tea trade, but more than that it's about social life in India


... but aha ... I googled

india "steamer Siam"

the book 'Indika, The country and People of India and Ceylon': http://tinyurl.com/z2p3wkh

on the page linked above:

'He was good enough to come out to the steamer Siam when I was about sailing'

do the same google search and you will find numerous other references to it

'The Peninsular and Oriental Company's steamer Siam'

a guide published in 1884: http://tinyurl.com/z8zapbr

'New Zealand steamers connect with the P and O Company. Their steamer, Siam, in November, 1877, reached in 37 3/4 days from England'


so it does sound like an England-bound voyage

if you make the google search terms

india "steamer siam" 1889

you will find a couple of dozen results that give some information about its sailings from and to India

but Ancestry inbound passenger lists (sorry yes, starting in 1878) do not show any arrivals for the ship Siam in 1889, or for any P and O ships before 1900

Thank you for your help.
Tantalising, isn't it, when my ancestor gives so much detail and then we can't resolve it!! :-S

Incoming passenger lists to the UK start at 1878, however no sign of Rosamond on them.

It's possible the journey on the Siam only constituted part of the voyage - and that's if it was indeed the voyage home to England.

Many, many passenger lists are missing - including those of quite a few of my ancestors who I know didn't swim between continents!

no passenger records pre 1890 ... incoming or outgoing


she returned to India after the 1889 sailing to England?

the closest thing that FMP finds for 'Siam' is a ship named 'Gulf of Siam' that sailed to Australia in the 1890s

UPDATE: I am still ploughing my way though this wonderful journal and have come across an entry which may lead us to more information:

My ancestor writes that her sister ROSAMOND HANNA sailed on the 'SIAM' in mid 1889.

I guess that she is sailing home to England. She was born in 1838 in Manchester.

Can anyone see her on any passenger lists, please? Especially since we so helpfully have the name of the ship.
:-)

Hello to you all.

Late yesterday evening I decided that my next task on the journey that is Family History should be for me to fully transcribe this lengthy journal written by my ancestor. You've all been so helpful but of course what we really want is confirmed dates.

Although the journal is neat and tidy, the writing is faded and spidery and there is a lot of it; she has numbered the pages up to 114 and each line is very closely written. So up until now, I have just looked at the odd pages here and there to try to learn more.

But this morning, I turned quite by chance to a page where the diary entry is clearly headed up "Off the Coast of Ceylon. TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11 1890". And the opening lines are: "My journals ended abruptly the day before I left Calcutta and now my happy visit to May & Archie is over & I am non my homeward way! I must try to make some short record of our doings during these ten weeks." May is her niece Lady [Violet] May Earle, nee Besant and married to Sir Archdale Earle, Indian Commissioner.

So please IGNORE and also FORGIVE me for putting in the post two up from here where I thought I had nailed the date of the diary to 1895. I now know that I was wrong - keen, but wrong.

***** OMG: because I am determined to post as much accurate information on here, I have gone back to the beginning of the journal to see if I can find out more before I start transcribing the whole thing. And there written in teeny tiny writing at the side of the first page is scrawled "FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 27, 1889". And the first entry is "It is nearly six months since I made my last entry in my journals, on the day I left Douglas Dale to join Rosamond at Mrs. Stehelin's house at Naini Tal."****

Rosamond is her younger sister who married in her fifties to Colonel Henry Bathurst Hanna at Naini Tal in 1889. So the guessing at the top of this thread that Isabel had travelled to India to be at that wedding is almost certainly correct!

So this journal is obviously the SECOND one; there must be a previous one somewhere, maybe never to be found. And now we know FOR SURE that Isabel DEFINITELY began her trip in India during 1888, i.e., the six months that she mentions above.

Do you think that I should edit the opening post to confirm these dates?

I can see some very long sessions ahead on the computer as I take on the transcription of this wonderful journal, but it will be very worthwhile I am sure.
:-)

well unfortunately ... it still seems that she must have travelled before 1890, likely, as has been considered, for her sister's wedding - and then stayed on for that long?

FIBIS has various publications that mention sailings and such

http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps_person_search.php

but I don't see anything for her name

Hello again.
To MALYON, GLITTERBABY and JOONIECLOONIE and others:-

I have now worked out via the internet from one of the diary entries that it was written during 1895, so that pinpoints the year.

She writes an entry on that date:
"Our journey yesterday was superb - through the finest ???? scenery we have travelled amongst, though with only an occasional glimpse of the ???? in the early part of the march. The bold, lofty, steep hills, here sparsely covered with sparse woods chiefly ever green oak of a different kind to that at Naini Tal." etc.,etc.

It is interesting that she mentions Naini Tal, because that is where her younger sister Rosamond Hervey was married to Henry Bathurst Hanna in 1889 - they were both in their fifties when they married, having not been married before.

Does the fact that we now know at last when this wonderful journal was written help in the search, please?

Always hoping .... :-D

Thank you, I knew about little Jane but somehow the other child Hamilton burial missed me completely.

So from the original quest to find Isabel's sailing to India has produced these two little children who would have been her brother and sister.

And thank you for the snippet about the removal of graves. This has also happened at Chorlton-cum-Hardy where another relation is buried. Her headstone of beautiful white marble has been laid flat and the area is a peaceful little park and walkway. Perhaps I may find that these two children's headstone/s have also been laid flat in the new Park you mention. We don't live too far away to research this.

So thank you to all of you and particularly Jacqueline and JoonieCloonie who have been real detectives.
:-D :-D

Having looked at deceasedonline, records for Rusholme Road all show 'removal of graves' dated 31st March 1957

Is this another sibling? FMP record

First name(s) JANE HAMILTON
Last name HERVEY
Age 2
Birth year 1840
Death/Burial year 1842
Death/Burial day 19
Death/Burial month Dec
Cemetery MANCHESTER RUSHOLME ROAD
County Lancashire
Country England
Records' title Gravestone Inscriptions
Record locality Manchester Rusholme Road
Date range 1821 - 1933
Film M 74 / 3 / 18 / 1

deceasedonline records

Hervey, Jane Hamilton
recordedon: 31 March 1957 recorded at: Rusholme Road Cemetery, Chorlton Upon Medlock (Greater Manchester) date of death 19 December 1842
Hervey, Jane Hamilton
buriedon: 31 March 1957 recorded at: Removal Of Graves date of death 19 December 1842

The burial record I posted was from FMP


You could try the following site for further info, but be aware that it has only a very limited number of records

It's a subscription site, but you can do a free search

https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch


This snippet from Rootsweb (found by googling) probably ends your quest for this particular piece of info
Rusholme Road Cemetery no longer exists and is now Gartside Gardens. I think the burials are still there which is probably why it has been landscaped and not redeveloped.

Signing off until tomorrow pm.

How on earth did you find that? Amazing.

Please tell me where you found the burial details because I can't work it out from your post? Since it gives a grave number, etc., I should be able to find the headstone inscription? But from where?

So grateful for all your help.
:-)

Just for baptism date........still no mention of father's occ, but on the LancsOPC info posted above, the address is the same as for the brother

First name(s) Hammilton
Last name Hervey
Gender Male
Birth year -
Birth place ENGLAND
Baptism year 1831
Baptism date 02 May 1831
Residence Wigan, Lancashire, England
Place Wigan
County Lancashire
Country England
Father's first name(s) Robert
Father's last name Hervey
Mother's first name(s) Jane