Find Ancestors

Alan people have been guessing at his marriage and death but since he is your grandfather you probably have that information :-)

it would help to share it just so we know where he was at other times

keep in mind that being born in the workhouse didn't necessarily mean the parents were destitute - workhouses had infirmaries that operated as hospitals and particularly for maternity

have you found his parent(s) in 1911? that information, whether you have or haven't, is also important to share

we know nothing about them (date and place of birth) so are casting about wildly to find them in earlier censuses to know who to look for in 1911 ... although they may not be lost, you may have found them

Marriages Dec 1892
Reen Ellen Kensington 1a 390
VARY Thomas Kensington 1a 390

(I find the freebmd format the simplest and easiest to understand)

since you don't know of his life between birth and 1920, you probably don't know whether he had siblings (older or younger)? ... he is the only Vary ever born in Bedford


yours is the only Ellen who ever married a Vary in England

is it possible this is her in 1901?

- edit - I'm sorry!! malyon suggested this - I'll leave it here for continuity:

Name: Ellen Vary
Age: 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation to Head: Prisoner
Gender: Female
Birth Place: London, England
Civil Parish: Portsmouth
County/Island: Hampshire
Registration district: Portsmouth
ED, institution, or vessel: H M Prison Kingston
Occupation: needlewoman
> Condition as to marriage: married


there is no marriage in the records for this couple in 1901 below, could this be your Thomas?

Name: Thomas Vary
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: Alice Vary
Birth Place: Dub, Irl
Civil Parish: Streatham
County/Island: London
Country: England
Occupation: general dealer
Condition as to marriage: married
Thomas Vary 28
Alice Vary 24 born Wandsworth c1877
George Vary 1 born Tooting (birth reg Q3 1899)
Mary Vary 8/12

1911 in Camberwell:

Thomas Vary 42 born Bermondsey, coster monger
Alice Vary 32 born Battersea
George Vary 11
Emily Mary Vary 10


bit of an odd pair of marriages

Marriages Jun 1916
Vary Thomas Vickery Camberwell 1d 1784
Vickery Alice Vary Camberwell 1d 1784

Marriages Mar 1929
Vary Thomas Vickery Camberwell 1d 1145
Vickery Alice Vary Camberwell 1d 1145

Births Jun 1878 ?
VICKERY Alice Wandsworth 1d 650

this might suggest that the first marriage was found to be bigamous and they re-married :-)


if these do turn out to be the people in question, they seem to be what we would call a 'disorganised' family today ... Ellen's situation would explain Frank not being with family in 1911 perhaps if he was placed in an institution or fostered at birth

Ann mentioned Ireland and this birth would fit the Ellen we found in 1901

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F546-WVC

Name Ellen
Gender Female
Christening Place 392, COOM, KERRY, IRE
Birth Date 01 Apr 1870
Birthplace Coom, Kerry, Ire
Father's Name John Reen
Mother's Name Mary Murphy

as would this one

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPT2-BD4

Name Ellen
Gender Female
Christening Place 610, INCHIGEELA, CORK, IRE
Birth Date 01 Jun 1871
Birthplace Inchigeela, Cork, Ire
Father's Name Patrick Reen
Mother's Name Ellen Keleher

hopefully the Reen+Vary marriage certificate would tell you your Ellen's father's name and her age, and whether it matched one of those

her age at marriage would help find her in censuses

one more child to the Vary+Vickery union

Births Sep 1913
VARY THOMAS W VICKERY Camberwell 1d 1479

unfortunately

Deaths Jun 1920
VARY Thomas 6 Camberwell 1d 738


Deaths Mar 1960
VARY Alice 81 Camberwell 5c 305

Deaths Mar 1946
Vary Thomas 77 Camberwell 1d 668


two people have in their trees here

Alice Vickery 1879 Battersea, London

and two people have

Thomas Vary 1869 Bermondsey, England

which is the info in the 1911 census ... that does match this birth

Births Dec 1868
VARY Thomas Bermondsey 1d 90

although the 1901 that is very definitely for the same family says Dublin, Ireland

and someone has

Ellen Reen 1870 Kerry, Ireland


1881 fits for Thomas - mother born Ireland

Name: Thomas Vary
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: Robert G. Vary
Mother: Mary Vary
Gender: Male
Where born: Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Kensington
County/Island: London
Street address: 142 Portland Road
Registration district: Kensington
Robert G. Vary 37 born London, fishmonger master
Mary Vary 33 born Ireland
Thomas Vary 12
Robert Vary 10
Ellen Vary 9
John Vary 7
Joseph Vary 5
Samuel C. Vary 2
Daniel C. Vary

Deaths Mar 1929 ?
Vary Ellen 58 St.Albans 3a 1523

no other Vary events in St Albans at any time

>> this fits exactly with the time of the second Vary+Vickery marriage in Camberwell, i.e. it could have been immediately after Ellen's death


I wonder whether this was Thomas and Ellen's first child ... born and died the same quarter as their marriage, in Kensington

Births Dec 1892
Vary Ellen Mary Kensington 1a 112

Deaths Dec 1892
Vary Ellen Mary 0 Kensington 1a 81

but a second born not long later

Births Mar 1896
Vary Ellen Mary Kensington 1a 148

and no further record of her

Rober G Vary, Thomas's brother, also married in Kensington in 1892 ... and his son Robert G also had a daughter Ellen M born 1929, died 1930

so the name Ellen (their sister, 1872, also in trees here) was on the Vary side of the family too

this is an unfortunate possibility for Ellen in 1911

Name: E V
Age in 1911: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1871
Relation to Head: Patient
Gender: Female
Birth Place: London, England
Civil Parish: Friern Barnet
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address: Colney Hatch Asylum, Friern Barnet N
Marital Status: Married
Registration district: Barnet

the 1929 death certificate - if I have been following the right people - would tell you her circumstances at the time of her death

the two locations are very nearby and there was a psychiatric hospital in St Albans

http://www.stalbansoutofsightoutofmind.org.uk/page_id__23_path__0p2p23p.aspx

'Napsbury is a residential area to the West of London Colney in the district of St. Albans in Hertfordshire. It was formerly the site of a major psychiatric hospital.'
'The Middlesex County Asylum was founded in 1898, and open from 1905 to 1998.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friern_Hospital

'Friern Hospital (formerly Colney Hatch Lunatic Asylum) was a psychiatric hospital in Colney Hatch in what is now the London Borough of Barnet. The hospital was built as the second Middlesex County Asylum and was in operation from 1851 to 1993.'


btw your Frank's birth was initially registered as Very, just for info

Births Mar 1902
Very Frank Bedford 3b 300
Births Mar 1902
Vary Frank Bedford 3b 300a

Frank Patrick does give his mother Ellen Vary as next-of-kin when he enlisted in 1922 .................

Next of Kin:- Mother Ellen Vary, 36 Foster (??sp) Rd, W. Croydon

I wasn't sure whether the street name was Foster or not

well that might throw a wrench into my works Sylvia

however I do know of someone who enrolled for WWII who had been placed in an institution as a child ... and gave a name and address for his mother ... who was actually deceased! so one never knows ...

I had been bundling this last effort up when you posted, edited to add this ^^^ reply so as not to go leapfrogging


edit 14 Nov - ignore the info below about Annie Florence Vary
London baptisms at Ancestry shows her as daughter of Thomas's brother Robert

(no baptisms of children of Thomas Vary)


possibly interesting in 1911

Name: Anne Vary
Age in 1911: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1894
Relation to Head: Niece
Gender: Female
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: Kensington
County/Island: London
Street address: 60 St Anns Road, Notting Hill W
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: IRONER
Registration district: Kensington
Mary Bloomfield 36 - sister of wife of Robert G Vary, Thomas's brother
Anne Vary 17


Births Sep 1894
Vary Annie Florence Kensington 1a 121

brother Robert had a younger child (see 1911) with Florence middle name so it would be unusual for that Annie to be his child

Births Dec 1906
Vary Catherine Florence Kensington 1a 86

the 1894 Annie was with the Bloomfield grandmother and aunt in 1901

Mary Bloomfield 62
Mary Bloomfield 24
Annie Vary 6
Edward Griffiths 31

the only connection with the Bloomfield name is Robert's wife and there is no apparent reason why that one child would have been reared by someone other than Robert and his wife ... could she possibly have been a child of Thomas taken in by his brother Robert's in-laws?


I am wandering afield here :-) just looking for any clues to Frank/Patrick in the 1911 census since we don't seem to know whether Ellen had other children

Mary Catherine born 1899 is Catherine M in 1911, daughter of Samuel ...

the 1896 Ellen Mary seems to belong to Thomas's brother John, in Nottinghamshire in 1911

definitely says Foster Rd on the image

there was no Foster Rd in Croydon in 1911 and there isn't one now ...

well, that's interesting .........

maybe you are right ............ he didn't know whether his mother was alive or dead.

http://www.londontown.com/LondonStreets/forster_road_b4c.html/

(pehaps was above)

Chris :)

poster has yet to open my mnessage

I hope Alan sees your message / returns Ann, we could certainly use some input apart from the sketchy info in the first post!



Aha yes Chris, in fact one person talking about it here mistypes it 'Foster' :-)

EDIT I somehow managed to put a completely unrelated link here, this is the one I intended

http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=1721&p=localities.britisles.england.sry.general

Google maps finds it but because of people's refusal to put numbers on their houses I haven't figured out the house (or is google blocking them out?!) - the street starts here and I think the numbers run up from there, and even numbers are on the right ... I did manage to spot nos. 51 and then 55 on a large white double and 67 in big numbers a few doors south:

http://tinyurl.com/ofnxtge

quite a nice neighbourhood today :-)

but less so in earlier days I think ... in 1911 one occupant of #43 was a hawker and another a flower seller ... and a labourer and a dealer ... that one was multi-family

going back through the census images from there - and yes half of them say 'Foster' ... 36 was occupied by a hawker (3 people in one room), a railway navvy (3 people in one room), and a husband and wife jobbing gardener and hawker (that family was 6 people in two rooms).

why on earth do people ask for help and then disappear :-S

I've given it a try too!

AnnC ............

sometimes people are accessing from a computer in the local library, or they work shifts, or they've had a medical emergency either for themselves or other family members.

There's all kinds of reasons.

thanks for your message Alan - but you must respond on here for all to see please

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply but been have problems with my computer. (and still am).
Thank you all very much for your reply's / information. it will take me some time to go through it all. I know a lot of the information received, like his Marriage in 1929 to Annie E Lee, and his Death in 1979, what l'm really looking for is, if anyone can tell me what happened to him between his birth in 1902, and him joining The Royal Dublin Fusiliers transferring to Queens Royal Regiment. I know he was boxing for the Royal Dublin Fusiliers in 1921 - 1925 in India. (I have newspaper cuttings of his fights).
Once again thanks for all your help.

Joonie, We were always told that Frank's mother died when he was very young, l have a copy of a death certificate for a Ellen Vary (we believe to be the correct Ellen Vary) who died in Holborn Infirmary on the 7th December 1907, from Pulmonary tuberculosis Syncope. I am trying to find out what happened to Frank after her death. You are correct, on Frank's birth certificate his name was spelt Very this was corrected on the 12th September 1945 by declarations made by Joe Vary and Nell Daly.
Sorry Ann I'm new to this.

no need to apologise Alan :-) I should apologise for being such a grouch :-D

Surrey Mirror 10 August 1923

DRUNK AND DISORDERLY

ELLEN VARY (54) Foster Road, West Croydon, was charged with being drunk and disorderly in Station Road, Redhill, on Wednesday afternoon.....Case was dismissed
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Perhaps also related??

Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette 30 October 1902

BATH POLICE

A NUISANCE
Ellen Vary was charged with wandering abroad and begging in Bond Street on the 25th and also using obscene language in George Street on the same date....The Prisoner who appeared with a baby in her arms said she had been deserted by her husband and had to shift for herself. She was almost out of her mind with worry having the baby to look after......
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Gloucester Citizen 19 December 1902

Swindon- Petty Sessions:

Ellen Vary, a Hawker, was charged with being drunk and disorderly at Purton and also with causing cruelty to her child, a baby of nine months. The woman was carrying the child about her when intoxicated, and exposing it to a pouring rain...
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