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Please can anyone help to confirm or otherwise if these 2 people are the same.
My Greatgrandfathers brother John Todd was born or christened 1.1.1854 to Jane (Jean) nee Piggott and John Tod in Fettercaurn Kincardine Scotland. He had a sister and a niece named Betsy but called Bessie.
We understand that he emigrated to New Zealand as did his brother David and their parents.
We have found John Todd and wife Catherine Clark Martin born Fountainbleu Scotland 26. 6. 1855 died Owaka New Zealand 23.9.1931. This family came to New Zealand on the ship Nelson on 20.10.1883 with 2 children, William 4 and Betsy2, it appears she was called Bessie in later life. Both children were born in Kincardineshire.
If anyone can find their marriage around 1878 and find his parents names on it that would tell us if they are our family. Thanks very much for any help.
Margaret

Looking at the census records it certainly appears to be the same person but-

Have you searched Scotlands People?

On searching there is a marriage between John Todd and Catherine Martin in 1877. You need to purchase credits to view the marriage on line, but this will tell you his parents' names.

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
-----------------------------

1881:

Name: John Todd
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Catherine Todd
Gender: Male
Where born: Kincardineshire, Fettercairn
Registration Number: 322
Registration district: Tealing
Civil Parish: Tealing
County: Angus
Address: Inveraldy Privatee House
Occupation: Corn Miller
ED: 1
Household schedule number: 10
Line: 18
Roll: cssct1881_97
Household Members:
Name Age
John Todd 27 Kincardineshire, Fettercairn
Catherine Todd 25 Forfarshire, Mains
William Todd 2 Forfar, Strathmartin
Betsy Todd 6 Forfarshire, Tealing (Original image may say 6 months??)

This record from familysearch definitely says birth


Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Name John Todd
Gender Male
Birth Date 01 Jan 1854
Birthplace FETTERCAIRN,KINCARDINE,SCOTLAND
Father's Name John Todd
Mother's Name Jane Pigot

From Ancestry:
New Zealand, Cemetery Records, Otago
DAVID TODD died at Owaka 17th Sept 1909 aged 17 years. also John husband of Catherine TODD died 19th October 1924 aged 73yrs, also the above Catherine Clarke Martin born at Fountainbleau Scotland 26 June 1855 died at Owaka 23rd Sept. 1931

Catherine's birth:

1855 MARTIN CATHERINE CLARK F MAINS /ANGUS 307/01 0027

Credits on Scotlands People will let you view / print the image of the original document, and it will tell you her parents' names and when/where they married.

1861 census

John Todd Head Married Male 42 1819 Corn Miller Fettercairn, Kincardineshire, Scotland
Transcription
Jane Todd Wife Married Female 36 1825 - Tannadice, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
Betsy Todd Daughter - Female 13 1848 Scholar Aberlemno, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
John Todd Son - Male 7 1854 Scholar Fettercairn, Kincardineshire, Scotland
Transcription
David Todd Son - Male 5 1856 - Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
James Todd Son - Male 3 1858 - Aberlemno, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
Jane Todd Daughter - Female 0 1861 - Fettercairn, Kincardineshire, Scotland
Transcription
Robert Will Servant Unmarried Male 21 1840 Miller Laurencekirk, Kincardineshire, Scotland
Transcription
Helen Taylor Servant Unmarried Female 15 1846 Hous Sev Marykirk, Kincardineshire, Scotland
Transcription
Census details
First name(s) John
Last name Todd
Relationship Son
Marital status -
Gender Male
Age 7
Birth year 1854
Occupation Scholar
Birth town Fettercairn
Birth town as transcribed FETTERCAIRN
Birth county Kincardineshire
Birth county as transcribed KINCARDINESHIRE
Birth place (other) Scotland
Birth place other as transcribed -
House name Arnhall P House
Street -
Parish Fettercairn
City or borough -
County Kincardineshire
Country Scotland
Municipal ward -
Parliamentary borough -
Registration district Fettercairn
Enumeration district 4
Archive reference RG09
Piece number -
Folio number -
Page number -
Family member last name TODD, WILL, TAYLOR
Family member first name(s) DAVID, ROBERT, JANE, JOHN, HELEN, JAMES, BETSY
Record set 1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Category Census, land & surveys
Subcategory Census

John
Last name Todd
Gender Male
Birth year 1819
Birth place -
Baptism year 1819
Baptism date 02 Oct 1819
Baptism place FETTERCAIRN,KINCARDINE,SCOTLAND
Father's first name(s) Alexr.
Father's last name Todd
Mother's first name(s) Betty
Mother's last name Clarke
Place Fettercairn
County Kincardineshire
Country Scotland
Record set Scotland Births & Baptisms 1564-1950
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

Jane
Last name Pigot
Gender Female
Birth year 1822
Birth place -
Baptism year 1822
Baptism date 13 Oct 1822
Baptism place TANNADICE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Pigot
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Mother's last name Millar
Place Tannadice
County Forfarshire (Angus)
Country Scotland
Record set Scotland Births & Baptisms 1564-1950
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

Jean
Last name Piggot
Marriage year 1845
Marriage date 29 Dec 1845
Marriage place Aberlemno,Angus,Scotland
Spouse's first name(s) John
Spouse's last name Tod
Place Aberlemno
County Forfarshire (Angus)
Country Scotland
Record set Scotland Marriages 1561-1910
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

Scotland Births and Baptisms 1564-1950 Transcription
Print transcription
First name(s) Catherine Clark
Last name Martin
Gender Female
Birth year 1855
Birth place MAINS AND STRATHMARTINE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
Baptism year -
Baptism date -
Baptism place -
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Martin
Mother's first name(s) Helen
Mother's last name Clark
Place Mains And Strathmartine
County Forfarshire (Angus)




1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Fountainblean, Mains, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland

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Print transcription
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Mary McGlashan Head Widow Female 65 1806 Washerwoman Dundee, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
>>Catherine Martine Boarder Unmarried Female 16 1855 Linen Yarn Bleacher Mains, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland




1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Fountainblean, Mains, The Parish of Mains, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland

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Print transcription
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Helen Martin Head Widow Female 45 1816 - Dundee, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
John Martin Son Unmarried Male 19 1842 Linen Yarn Bundler Mains, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
Alexander Martin Son - Male 14 1847 Linen Yarn Bleacher Leslie, Fife, Scotland
Transcription
>>Catherine Martin Daughter - Female 5 1856 - Mains, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
Thomas Miller - Unmarried Male 30 1831 Linen Yarn Bleacher Dundee, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland




1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Fountainblenn, Mains, Dundee, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland

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Print transcription
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Martin Head Married Male 39 1812 Beatterman Of Yarn Mains, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
Hellen Martin Wife Married Female 36 1815 - Dundee, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
Jean Martin Daughter Unmarried Female 15 1836 Out Door Serv Mains, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
John Martin Son - Male 9 1842 Scholar Mains, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
Agness Martin Daughter - Female 7 1844 - Mains, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
Alexander Martin Son - Male 3 1848 - Fife, Scotland




1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Westmill, Strathmartine, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland

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Print transcription
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Gender Age Birth year Birth place
John Martin Male 28 1813 Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
Helen Martin Female 25 1816 Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Transcription
Jane Martin Female 5 1836 Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland

Thank you very much everyone, looks like I need to go to the marriage on Scotland's people to confirm. These other posts about John are our family. We are making a family book and want to include this brother and family if we can prove it is him, will also mean we can hunt for his descendants in New Zealand..
When father John died it said there were 2 daughters and 2 sons still living, that was David, probably John and 2 sisters probably Betsy and a younger one by the ages.
I see John's birth year is 1854 on here which is what we had before finding the 1856 one perhaps it is christening.
Thanks again.
Margaret

Thanks everyone I have been able to confirm that these 2 people are the same, I purchased his death certificate which had his parents names on it. So we now have these relatives confirmed. However Maddie's information on here brought up the fact that this John and his brother David's father John Todd could be the son of two different Alexander Todd's, we had him connected to Alexander and Jean nee Anderson and born in 1822 in Carmyllie but this census info points to Alexander and Betty Clarke born in Fettercairn in 1819. Unfortunately his death certificate lists parents as Unknown. Also does not state his date of birth but points towards the 1822 one when the census points otherwise.I have found 13 children for this couple but no further information on them, I tried looking on Scotland's people but I found it a difficult site to find anything on and didn't have any success. If anyone has any suggestions on how we can make progress on this I would love to hear them, I am hoping my DNA might help but I realise it is also very possible that they might have been related since the two places are only about 40 miles apart, thanks for your interest. Margaret

Margaret, did you take Austin's advice and download John and Catherinee's 1877 marriage certificate from Scotlandspeople please? Scottish marriage certificates name both parents including the mother's maiden surname. The occupation of John's father on the certificate may help identify the correct Alexander if John senior maybe had the same occupation as his father.

Catherine's 1855 birth certificate will name any other children born to the same parents prior to her birth. This only happened for 1855 births as this was the year that registration began in Scotland and they were still deciding what information should be included on certificates. Similarly an 1855 death certificate for a married person includes the names and ages of all the children (in some cases including those that are deceased).

Thank you rootgatherer, sorry to take so long to reply, I needed to carefully go through all the information I had. I am not sure John and Catherine's marriage certificate will tell me any more but it does look like the only possibility as they don't have marriages for 1845 on Scotland's people, which is when John and Jane were married.
We have had some good success, through a genealogy society where John and Catherine lived we have made contact with their 95 year old grandson, unfortunate he does not have any further information and did not know his great grandparents also came to New Zealand but he was interested in what we have found.

Yes, Scotlands People does show marriages before 1855, in the Old Parish Registers section.

Some of those are records of banns, rather than marriages, and the OPR's don't usually give much information, compared with the Statutory Registers from 1855 onwards, but the records which have survived are indeed there.

Maddie posted John & Jane/Jean's marriage on 28th Feb @ 16:11.
Here it is again, from SP:

29/12/1845 TOD JOHN JEAN PIGGOT/ M ABERLEMNO /ANGUS 269/00 0020 0091

You can view the original document for a few credits.
.

Thank you I will try to view it . I did copy the date from what Maddie had found. For some reason I don't seem to have worked out how to get the most from Scotland's people! Will keep trying. From other places I have found 2 other John Todd marriages that could be from either of these families, they are listed as our John on one site but are not as they had children in the same time frame. John Todd to Elizabeth Brodie 26.5.1850 Montrose Angus, daughter MaryAnne Cains Todd 1851. And John Todd to Agnes Miller 17.6.1842 at St Vigeans Carmyllie, had a number of children. Some one has his parents as John Todd and Isabelle Anderson, but this may not be a fact!
Many thanks again. Margaret

Maybe your difficulty with SP is that you have been searching for the specific spelling "Todd" ?

It's always good to search with "Surname variants" or "Forename variants" - from the drop-down list in the Options box to the right of the person's name.
Particularly with older records, names are frequently not spelled the way you expect.


However, there's little point in spending credits on John &Jean/Jane's marriage record until you know if they are indeed John junior's parents.
As AustinQ and Rootgatherer have already said, to be sure of John junior's parents' names, you need his 1877 marriage cert, which will show that, including mother's maiden surname.


EDIT:

The 1819 birth of John Todd to Alexander and Betty is the only birth of a John Tod or Todd in Fettercairn between 1806 and 1830 - at least as showing on SP.

In case John & Jean /Jane are the correct parents, here they are in 1851:

John Todd
in the 1851 Scotland Census
Name: John Todd
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Relationship: Head
Spouse: Jean Todd
Gender: Male
Where born: Mearns Fettercairn
Parish Number: 269
Civil Parish: Aberlemno
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County: Angus
Address: Mitton Of Melyand
Occupation: Miller
ED: 6
Page: 11
Household schedule number: 37
LINE: 13
Roll: CSSCT1851_57
Household Members:
Name Age
John Todd 30
Jean Todd 26
Betty Todd 6
Jean Todd 2
Mary Jaffray 16


And probably John in 1841:

John Todd
in the 1841 Scotland Census
Name: John Todd
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil Parish: Tannadice
County: Angus
Address: Village Of Jannaoise
Occupation: Com Miller J <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Parish Number: 321
Household Members:
Name Age
John Brino 30
Ann Brino 30
James Brino 2
Isabel Brino 2 Mo
Helen Anderson 15
John Todd 20
Andrew Hebbington 9

I can't see a marriage between Betty Clarke and Alexander Tod(d), nor the births of any children other than John.

I know the OPR's aren't exhaustive, but it's also possible they weren't married - although the fact that their child is named Todd, and that Alexander is named on the birth cert, suggests they were..

If it's of any relevance, there's this marriage:

10/12/1825 CLARKE BETTY HENRY LAING/FR596 (FR596) F FETTERCAIRN /KINCARDINE 257/00 0020 0199


Henry Laing
in the 1841 Scotland Census
Name: Henry Laing
Age: 38
Estimated birth year: abt 1803
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil Parish: Fettercairn
County: Kincardineshire
Address: Inch
Occupation: Linen H L W
Parish Number: 257
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Laing 38
Betsey Laing 38
Jean Laing 10
Christina Laing 7
Betsey Laing 4
Robert Laing 2

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=692178.0

(somebody above tracing William Todd, if relating)

Chris :)


(below, taken from above)

Family Search has a baptism in Fettercairn 15.12.1801 parents Alexander Todd & Betty Clark

William Todd who was married to Catherine Christie on the 25/05/1826 in Marykirk

William Todd lived to a good old age - 92! He died in Montrose 12/2/1894 - shown as widower of Catherine Christie, informant son James. Parents given as Alexander Todd, Linen Weaver (deceased) and Elizabeth Todd, nee Clark (deceased).

Thanks for your continued help. We are sure that John jun is John and Jean Piggott's son as I have his death certificate wth them listed on it.
I have got a list of children of Alexander and Betty from the LDS site and William is one of them Chris. We believe that he is our John's brother, he died aged 77.
We have just yesterday managed to find in the 1851 census a John and Agnes married 17.6.1842, which says he was born in Carmyllie in abt 1822 and our one John and Jean born in Fettercairn abt 1821 which we feel with the other evidence means we belong to the Fettercairn Alex and Betty not the Carmyllie Alex and Jean. The only negative is that somewhere some one had the Carmyllie John as son of John and Isabelle Anderson, so I need to look into their marriage details further. I have found that things are not always correct so this could well be wrong. We just need enough facts to convince our cousin that the research her mother did was incorrect and we are not the Carmyllie branch.
The Betty Clarke Henry Laing is interesting, a bit to young for our one , possibly her niece.

https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/

(you can check NZ Deaths on above)


https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/

(Archives New Zealand, always worth a check on names)


http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast

(NZ Newspapers, also worth a look)

Chris :)

edits (from above Archives)

Wellllington probate files [first sequence]

TODD Catherine Martin ORDER DETAILS »
1931 1931 Wellington High Court