Find Ancestors

Was Joan born Muriel?

Birth:
First name(s) MURIEL D J
Last name WEST
Birth year 1923
Birth quarter 4
Mother's last name WEST
District ALVERSTOKE
County Hampshire
Volume 2B Page 821
--------------------------------------------

Death:
First name(s) MURIEL DOROTHY J
Last name MORRIS
Gender Female
Birth 28 Aug 1923
Death quarter 1
Death year 2006
District CHELMSFORD
District number 4681D
Register number D11G
Entry number 036
County Essex

Just posting more detailed 1911 for reference:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
7 San Diego Road Gosport, Alverstoke, Hampshire, England

Frank West Head Married Male Bricklayer 32 1879 Sussex Stedham
Ellen West Wife Married Female - 30 1881 Sussex Storrington
Daisy West Daughter - Female - 8 1903 Hants Gosport
Annie West Daughter - Female - 6 1905 Hants Gosport
Frank West Son - Male - 4 1907 Hants Gosport
Dorothy West Daughter - Female - 3 1908 Hants Gosport

Married 11 years. 6 children, 4 still living

No Joan was born Joan.

Thanks for all the help everyone :)

And Joan is still alive, living in Dorset.

One post says these are the children...

May West 1898–
Daisy Lily West 1901–1981
Annie West 1905–
Frank West 1907–1989
Dorothy West 1908



May west 1898 was born before her parents according to this... So wonder if her DOB is wrong or if she's not a child of theirs, maybe a parent?

That information came from a tree on Ancestry which has this 1901 census attached (On ancestry 2 months has been transcribed as 2 years):

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
4, Freemantle Road, Alverstoke, Hampshire, England

Frank West Head Married Male 24 1877 Bricklayer Midhurst, Sussex, England
Ellen West Wife Married Female 21 1880 - Storrington, Sussex, England
May West Daughter - Female 2 months 1901 - Gosport, Hampshire, England

I suspect this is the child on the 1901 (the 1911 says parents have lost 2 children):

Birth:
First name(s) ELLEN MAY
Last name WEST
Birth year 1901
Birth quarter 1
District ALVERSTOKE
County Hampshire
Country England
Volume 2B Page 555
---------------------------------------

Death:
First name(s) ELLEN MAY
Last name WEST
Gender Female
Birth year 1901
Age 0
Death quarter 3
Death year 1901
District ALVERSTOKE
County Hampshire
Volume 2B Page 385

Going back to the Muriel D J West birth that I posted above- apologies, I hadn't realised that Joan was still living...

Muriel D J West (with mother's maiden name West- indicating an illegitimate birth), was living with Daisy and Fred on the 1939 so I assumed she was Daisy's daughter- but perhaps you know differently?

Okay no the twin thing is completely untrue and Ellen Graham (Grandma) has no idea about Joan being a twin lol.

Muriel West is Daisy West's sister. They also had a sister called Ann and Ann had twin sons Len (alive as of last xmas, not sure until next xmas) and Ken who died.

Fred and Daisy lived in Gosport.

Frank West 32
Ellen West 30
Daisy West 8
Annie West 6
Frank West 4
Dorothy West 3

So Frank and Ellen (who I called Alice) had Daisy Lily West, my great grandmother. They had Ann who my grandmother Ellen Graham has confirmed and Grandma said there was Muriel Dorothy West - so that's Dorothy (Why did they pick and chose which names to put down!!!) And Frank!

Not sure what you mean re 'the twin thing'??!

I'm also not sure you've understood what I meant re Muriel D J West that was born in 1923.

These are the children of Frank and Ellen:

First name(s) ELLEN MAY
Last name WEST
Birth year 1901
Birth quarter 1
District ALVERSTOKE
County Hampshire
Volume 2B Page 555

Ellen died the same year
---------------------------------------------

First name(s) DAISY LILY
Last name WEST
Birth year 1902
Birth quarter 2
District ALVERSTOKE
County Hampshire
Volume 2B Page 566
-----------------------------------------------

First name(s) ANNIE
Last name WEST
Birth year 1904
Birth quarter 4
District ALVERSTOKE
County Hampshire
Volume 2B Page 540

Annie married Leonard H Mortimer. She died in 1983
---------------------------------------------------

First name(s) FRANK
Last name WEST
Birth year 1906
Birth quarter 2
District ALVERSTOKE
County Hampshire
Volume 2B Page 568
-------------------------------------------

And this looks to be the birth for Dorothy:

First name(s) DOROTHY NELLY
Last name WEST
Birth year 1907
Birth quarter 4
District ALVERSTOKE
County Hampshire
Country England
Volume 2B Page 518
---------------------------------------------------

According to the 1911 census Frank and Ellen also another child that died.

Sorry I posted that Joan had a twin and was wondering if Muriel was the twin but I was completely off - Muriel is Muriel Dorothy and she's Ellen's daughter.

Apparently it was May that was the child that died.

Yes, but another child of Frank and Ellen's died too- name unknown.

Are you sure Muriel Dorothy was Ellen's daughter? Are you talking about the same Muriel that was born in 1923? She was born with mother's maiden name WEST, if she was Ellen's daughter she would have mother's maiden name VOLLER.

I hope you understand!

I'm confused. Frank West married Ellen Voller and they had Muriel West, Daisy Lily West and so on.

Frank West married Ellen Voller- they had six children. By 1911 two of those children had died. We only know the names of 5 children:

Ellen May
Daisy Lily
Annie
Frank
Dorothy Nelly
--------------------------------------------------------

Frank West remarried in 1934 after his wife Ellen died (1933). This is him in 1939 with his new wife Caroline Alice (I wonder if this is where Daisy got the name Alice from?).

West Household (2 People) 86 San Diego Road , Gosport M.B., Hampshire, England
Frank West 22 Nov 1878 Male Brick Layer Heavy Worker Married
Caroline West 02 Aug 1879 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
--------------------------------------------

This is daughter Daisy Lily in 1939:

Graham Household (4 People) 2 Asquith Cottages King Street , Poole M.B., Dorset, England

Frederick G Graham 24 Oct 1908 Male General Labourer Heavy Worker Married
Daisy L Graham 15 May 1902 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Closed record
Closed record
Phyllis Phillips (Graham) 26 Jan 1931 Female At School Single
Closed record
Muriel D J Morris (West) 28 Aug 1923 Female Power Press Operator At Metal Carpenter Factory Single
---------------------------------------------

A closed record indicates someone that may still be living, or who has died after 1991 when they stopped updating the register.

Note the Muriel on the bottom of the 1939 register- she is listed as born in 1923 and later married to a surname Morris. I was trying to establish how or if she was related to Daisy (as she is living in the same house). The only birth that matches for this Muriel gives mother's maiden name as West- indicating an illegitimate birth. I wondered if she was Daisy's child before marriage, or perhaps the illegitimate child of one of Daisy's sisters.

I suspect that Franks second wife went by the name Alice- which might explain the confusion between Alice/ Ellen.

Caroline Alice Clark married William Henry Fenn in 1907.

I think Caroline Alice already had one daughter, Kathleen, born in 1903.

William and Caroline Alice had one daughter -Jean M, born in 1919.

Caroline Alice married Frank West in 1934.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Portsmouth Evening News - Thursday 08 November 1934

WEST- FENN On November 3rd at Fareham, Frank West widower of 86 Sandiego Road, Gosport, to Caroline Fenn, widow, Fareham.
----------------------------------------------

Frank died in 1952:

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar
WEST- Frank of 86 San Diego Road Gosport Hampshire died 3 February 1952 at St. Mary's Hospital Portsmouth. Administration Winchester to Caroline Alice West widow,
-----------------------------------------

Portsmouth Evening News - Tuesday 12 February 1952

In Memoriam
WEST- The son and daughters of the late Frank West wish to thank their friends and neighbours for their kindness and floral tributes.

Oh- Jean is listed under surnames Fenn and Clark. I wonder if Caroline split with William Fenn before Jean was born? Or perhaps it was her marriage that was bigamous (Was William Fenn already married?)- may be that's where the story comes from?

What year was Joan born Natasha?

Ahhhh my brain. Being trying to figure this out with my mum and grandma.

Grandma is saying she had an aunt Muriel. Making Muriel the sister to Daisy. Both as Wests. Grandma says Muriel lived with them growing up (However that confuses me if the family disowned Daisy, they didn't do a very good job if her sister is still in touch..)

The illegitimate birth was Joan (apparently born Dorothy/Dotty)

But Grandma and mum is adamant that Daisy West had the illegitimate child Joan (fact) and because of that she was disowned by her parents Frank and Ellen, so to think Ellen had an illegit child is a bit hypocritical.

I'm so confused.

Joan is 90 this year so born 1926.

Marriages Dec 1939 (>99%)

West Muriel D J Morris Poole 5a 1328

Is this Joan's birth ?


Births Jun 1926
West Joan D - (mother West) Hackney 1b 615