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My grandmother had 3 daughters to a first 'marriage'. Dorothy (eldest) Gladys b1918 Elsie b1920 all named Clough. Elsie named as Clough on her death certificate 1968 Gladys named Clough on her wedding cert in 1936 father named as Harry Clough. I cannot find any birth records for any of the girls - either with the surname Clough nor Constantine. I cannot find a marriage cert for my grandmother Florence Constantine and anyone called Clough!
Can anyone suggest a way forward please
Thanks
Karen

Hi Karen

Do you know their full date of birth(s)

When/where was Harry Clough & Florence Constantine born please?

Is there any chance that the children were adopted or their mom married again?

?????

Deaths Mar 1968
CLOUGH ELSIE ... 48 ...OLDHAM 10F 110

You refer to your Grandmother's "first" marriage. Did she have a second marriage please? If so when and where and what surname did she use for the subsequent marriage?

Clough Dorothy M Constantine Ormskirk 8b 1576 Scan available - click to view
Births Dec 1928 (>99%)
CLOUGH Clifford C Constantine Oldham 8d 1149

you say Dorothy was the eldest , but I have found Dorothy M Clough - mother a Constantine born in Ormskirk in 1922

you say to her 1st marriage who did Florence remarry and when please?

Looks like little Clifford that Claire in Wales found, died as an infant:

Deaths Mar 1930 Clough Clifford C 1 Oldham 8d 1165

Wondering if this is Harry. Father is deceased by the time of his baptism



Manchester, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1915

Name:Harry Clough

Birth Date:7 Nov 1897

Age:8

Baptism Date:27 Mar 1906

Parish:Oldham, St Stephen and All Martyrs

Parish as it Appears:St Stephen, Oldham

Father's Name:
Henry Clough

Mother's name:
Louisa Clough

Reference Number:L228

Item Number:4

Archive Roll:633

----------------------------------------------------------------



England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915

Name:Henry Clough

Estimated Birth Year:abt 1852

Registration Year:1904

Registration Quarter:Jul-Aug-Sep

Age at Death:52

Registration district:Oldham

Inferred County:Lancashire

Volume:8d

Page:456

This seems to match the Florence that Karen has in her tree:

England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Florence Constantine
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 1892
Baptism Place: Saint Matthew, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Father: John Thomas Constantine
Mother: Sarah
FHL Film Number: 1526143
Reference ID: - 2:1PP76V1

EDIT: This is the LancsOPC version

Baptism: Aug 1892 St Matthew the Apostle, Habergham Eaves, Lancashire, England
Florence Constantine - [Child] of John Thomas Constantine & Sarah
Abode: 80 Coal Clough Lane
Occupation: Brick Setter
Baptised by: A. H. N. Parker
Register: Baptisms 1890 - 1896, Page 35, Entry 280
Source: LDS Film 1526143

This would be her second marriage (to George Holt) :
Marriages 1931:
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
CLOUGH Florence C HOLT George Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Oldham RM/193/50
CONSTANTINE Florence C HOLT George Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Oldham RM/193/50
HOLT George CLOUGH Florence C Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Oldham RM/193/50
HOLT George CONSTANTINE Florence C Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Oldham RM/193/50


Possible death?

Deaths Dec 1933
Holt Florence 40 Oldham 8d 1050

Dea x

Well, the above might not be her death as there were at least 2 children born with the correct mmname - one in 1932 and the other in 1935.

Although there was another marriage in 1927 which could account for either, or both of these births:

Marriages Jun 1927
CONSTANTINE Elizabeth H Holt Manchester S 8d 320
Holt Walter Constantine Manchester S. 8d 320

Dea x

I'm not too sure about the 1933 death Dea posted - there are Holt/Constantine births in Lancs in 1932 and 1935 (won't post as possibly still living, Karen has them both in her tree)

EDIT: See Dea and I are thinking along the same lines, it's also possible that Karen has those as they may be relatives. Until she comes back and confirms it's difficult to pursue further.

PM sent to Karen to let her know how to return to her thread, and that she has replies requiring further info.

Sorry - had to stop for a glass of champagne with the family!

Florence Constantine born 07/07/1892
Gladys born 16/05/1918 - (date comes from her daughter) she married in 1936.
Florence married George Holt 20/01/1930 she names herself as Florence Constantine Clough on the wedding cert.
My father Ronald Holt was born in 25/05/1932
I always thought Dorothy (Dolly) was the eldest - she may not have been! Elsie was the youngest died 1968. aged 48.
Florence is living with her parents in Todmorden in 1911 census aged 18.

So she must have had the three girls before 1920.
It is eminently possible that she had them by other people and then they adopted the name Clough. My gran was a bit of a rum beggar! :-)

Thanks for all your help
Happy New Year x

PS the 1935 birth Holt/Constantine is my aunt Barbara - and yes still living ;-)

from the way the 2nd marriage record is listed it looks like she stated she was Constantine but had been known as Clough .

It would seem she lived with Mr Clough but didnt marry him

Hi Karen - pass a glass of that bubbly this way!

On Florence's marriage (registered 1931 per FreeBMD) what does it give as her status? (Spinster/divorced/widow)

Did you know she witnessed a murder in 1902? There's quite a bit in the newspaper archives. Can dig it out again if you don't have access.

PPS I know nothing about Harry Clough - he remains mysterious.

Yes I know she witnessed a murder - she told us all about it when we were children. It made the Times newspaper as it was quite grizzly.

She married George Holt 20/01/1930. She states she is a widow. She signs the certificate as Constantine Clough. I have the original cert (George states he is 53 - when in fact he was 63!)

Maybe she never registered the children or had them baptised because she was living 'in sin' with Harry Clough...

This is why I love family history!