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Hi. I am trying to figure out in which church my great great grandparents would have been married. As far as I know they were Catholic. Their names were Edward Rothwell FODEN and Mary WORTHINGTON.
He was born in about 1834 in Manchester. In the 1851 census I have found, what I believe to be, his family living in Manchester in the Ecclesiastical district of St Andrews. Am I correct in assuming that this would be the local Church of England parish? He is living in Ardwick in the Ecclesiastical district of St Silas in 1861 with his first wife Isabella. In 1871 he is still married to Isabella and they were living in Droylsden, in the Ecclesiastical district of St Mary's. In 1881 he, and his second wife Mary, were living in Stretford, in the Ecclesiastical district of St Matthew.
Mary WORTHINGTON was born in Manchester. I think I have found her in 1861 living in Ardwick in the Ecclesiastical district of St Francis.
Can anyone advise on the most likely Catholic Church for their marriage in 1876 or 1877. In addition how would I access these records in order to find their marriage?
I have searched, and others have tried to help, but we have not been able to find their civil marriage record.
Regards
Janine

Any possibility that Mary may have been married before?

Marriages Dec 1863 (>99%)
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Foden Edward Macclesfield 8a 199
Saul Mary Macclesfield 8a 199

Hi Janine

On Lancashire bmd there is an Edward Foden's marriage to Isabella Duffy in 1854 (presumably his first wife) at Manchester Cathedral. This would indicate that they were Church of England as Manchester Cathedral is an anglican cathedral. Cannot see another marriage for him 1876/1877 on either Lancs or Free bmd.

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Knowing your relatives were Catholic, it's natural to assume they were married in church.

When I got a certificate of one of my relatives it showed that they married in a registry office. Totally unexpected, as Catholics didn't recognise that you were really married if they were not conducted in a Catholic church.
Quote.

This is simply not true...many Catholics would probably agree with your thoughts but it was not until as late as Easter 1908 that a Catholic marriage HAD to held in a Catholic church for it to be recognised by the Catholic church. Even today there are certain (extreme) circumstances when a marriage not blessed by a priest is recognised by the Catholic church.

Please read the piece about this at the url below

http://www.uksearch2003.co.uk/page2.htm

Depending on the date of a marriage, even though it may appear that a couple were married at a Register Office, this may nor actually be the case. It may have taken place in a Catholic Church and the Registrar attended as was permissible by law. Take a look at lancsbmd, any register office marriages are listed as Register Office OR Registrar Attended.


Gerard Lodge

Thank you all for your replies.
Jacqueline, you are correct in guessing that it is because I cannot find a suitable marriage for them in the civil marriage lists, that I have turned to church records.
Jeanette I would be most relieved if they turned out to be Church of England, simply because I am more accustomed to searching for CoE ancestors and information of CoE seems to be more widely available.
My great grandmother was quite fervently Catholic and I had always assumed that this implied that her ancestors were also Catholic. I wonder whether her mother (Mary WORTHINGTON) was the Catholic, rather than both of her parents, as I had assumed. In those days, if a Catholic married someone from the Church of England would the Catholic Church have been prepared to marry them? Perhaps Isabella was CoE but Edward was Catholic and they married in her church, rather than his.
I will start looking at CoE churches now.
Joan I believe that it is unlikely that they were married before 1871 since Isabella and Edward were together, with their children, in the 1871 census.
Regards
Janine

Presumably this is Isabella's death.........

Name: Isabella Foden
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Year of Registration: 1876
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 43
District: Prestwich
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 254

Reg

I thought that ALL marriages had to be registered with the local Registrar and thence with GRO .................... unless they were Nonconformist, ie Quaker.


It is of coruse also quite possible that they did not marry.


That was much more common than than we like to think!



sylvia

Just to confirm the details..............

1871 census

Name: Edwd R Foden
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Isabella R
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchr, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Droylsden
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Droylsden
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England


Registration district: Ashton Under Lyne
Sub-registration district: Audenshaw
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 70
Household Members: Name Age
Edwd R Foden 37
Geo H Foden 11
Isabella Foden 9
Isabella R Foden 38
Sarah A Foden 9
Thos E Foden 3

And 1881 census.......

Name: Edward R. Foden
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Stretford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 2 Chester Rd
Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: Tobacconist

Registration district: Barton Upon Irwell
Sub-registration district: Stretford
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Clara Foden 3
Edward R. Foden 47
Margaret Foden 2
Mary Foden 34
Thos.Edward Foden 13

Reg

Clara's birth.........

Name: Clara Foden
Year of Registration: 1877
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Manchester (1837-1924)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 265

IF they married prior to Clara's conception, it would have had to be in a very narrow time-scale........

Reg

At that time it would not normally have been permissable for an anglican to marry a catholic without a dispensation. In effect this may havemeant your relatives were married in a civil ceremony or went to local parish c/e church.

Nothing on Lancsbmd for 1876 -1883 inclusive

Reg

Janine

your great grandmother could well have converted to Catholicism

her parents could be Anglican




sylvia

I wonder if they did in fact marry???




sylvia

Hi all

I don't want to confuse the issue, but could this marriage be a possibility. Mary would have had to have been married before to a Mr Knight though.

Edward Rothwell married either
Mary Knight or
Sarah Ann Henshaw

Barton on Irwell

June quarter 1876

8c 766

Dianne xx

Lancashire BMD says this marriage took place at Swinton St Peter, Salford, and yes he did marry Mary Knight.

It would have been a bit quick to have remarried June quarter 1876 as Isabella died June quarter 1876. Not impossible but, like Sylvia, I feel it is likely that they did not in fact get married. This was far more common than we like to think. If they had married in church, Catholic or Anglican, it would have been registered.

Another thought, Janine. Have you got a copy of your great grandmother's birth certificate. This should tell you if in fact it was a second marriage for Mary. I have one in my family from about the same time which showed it was a second marriage, ie two surnames for the mother.

Me again!! Dianne his surname is Foden. Rothwell is his middle name.

Dear All
According to my great grandmother's birth certificate her mother was Mary Foden formerly Worthington - no mention of an intervening surname. Perhaps I should apply for her death certificate - would this tell me whether they were married??
Regards and thank you for all your time and suggestions
Janine

janine

the death certificate could say Widow or Wife of xxxxx


BUT the information on a death certificate depends on what the informant knows or has been told by the deceased


....... and any or all of may be wrong, except for the date of death, the cause of death, and the informant's name and relationship to the deceased!


sylvia