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Hi,

Will have a look

Regards Vera

Just nudging this up in the hope that someone will take a look

I don't think the signatures on the 1911 census and the first marriage certificate are conclusively the same Mary or not, allowing for a 37 year gap between them. What does anyone else think?

1911 census - Mary Scivier b. 1851 - living Wandsworth with husband, George, and children,, William, Frederick and Ellen.


1874 marriage in Paddington (covered by Ancestry's London Marriages) between John Tubbs and Mary Ansell (transcribed by Ancestry as Ausell)

Just got off the phone. Finally got directed to the right registrars office which was the London Borough of Bromley. Spoke to a lovely lady who is going to check the records. Will keep you posted.

Thanks girls,
Thanks for the info on the Metrolpolitan Archives. They re-redirected me to the Surrey History Centre. Their phone line is extremely busy and I haven't been able to get through yet. I have also been trying the GRO but they are not taking calls either. Will let you know when I do.
I'm wondering if perhaps Mary said she couldn't read or write when it was time to sign the register? Got the 1911 thanks Mary.

1911 census is signed by Mary Scivier.

Have you got a copy,if not PM me your e.mail and I will send it to you.

Maryb

Bigamy was surprisingly common at that time, due to it being almost impossible to obtain a divorce.

I don't know if you can ask the GRO to send a copy of the original certificate. I've not tried.

I'm not sure if the London Metropolitan Archives hold the records for Croydon now. They might have the original on microfilm. You could try ringing them on 020 7332 3820

George and marys weding took place in Croydon...she had lived with John William Tubbs in the Westminster area...what distance is that 10 miles maybe?.....

Communications /Newspapers/no Telephones etc etc wern`t what they are today...i`d imagine you could go and live in the next town and people may not know where you were....


Nicky

Something is nagging at me. Would'nt Mary have been slightly worried that John Tubbs might find out if she had married George bigamously? She must have been quite brazen about it to have spent three weeks waiting for the banns to be called.

Heres Marys 2 brothers in 1871...

ANSELL, Benjamin Head M 21 1850 Essex VIEW
ANSELL, Frances S Wife F 20 1851 Lincolnshire VIEW
ANSELL, Alice S Daughter F 0 1871 Essex VIEW
ANSELL, Robert Brother M 16 1855 Essex VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG10 Piece:
1631 Folio:
44 Page:
88

Registration District:
West Ham Sub District:
West Ham Enumeration District:
15 Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
West Ham Municipal Borough:
Address:
Shirley Street, West Ham County:
Essex



Nicky

Thanks Chrstina,
Mel has a copy of the certificate so I have asked her to take a look. If I contact the GRO would they send me a copy of the original certificate?

If it doesn't mention an X, that means she did sign her name. But, unfortunately, the GRO have sent you a copy which they've written out themselves instead of a photocopy of the original.

I wish they wouldn't do that as it's so handy to have the original signatures, plus they sometimes put down the wrong information. They did that for my gt.grandparents which sent me off on the wrong track for years. It wasn't until I saw the original on Ancestry that I realised their mistake.

Actually, looking back at my notes and alI the census records with the various spellings of Tubess I had found the 1871 with Benjamin and Mary but had discounted it at the time because it put Mary as being born in Middlesex.
There is no way I could have got to this stage without everyones input. I am not very good at lateral thinking so I'm not sure I would have found all the collateral evidence. Hopefully I will get better at piecing together little snippets of information here and there as the years go by.

No, Mary didn't sign her name, there isn't even an X as a mark. It just says Mary Tubess in the handwriting of the writer.

I thought i found Mary in 1871 living in Marylebone working as a servant ,as was John William Tubbs...not the same household but Marylebone which is probably how they met.


Chrisitinas description of my theory is absolutley spot on.....I just gave you the information and hoped you`d come to your own conclusion.

I had also found John william Tubbs with his mother in 1881, but stating he`s married with no sign of a Wife.........



Nicky

RG10; Piece: 1305; Folio: 60; Page: 10

1871 census

Benjamin Tubb 1807 born Oxfordshire Ag Lab
Mary Tubb 1819 born Buckinghamshire
Mary Ann Tubb 1853 born Harrington, Middlesex
Thomas Tubb 1860 born Harrington, Middlesex
Alice I Tubb 1868 Grandau born Harrington, Middlesex

There's no sign of her mother on the 1871 census, and there's a Sophia Ansell death in 1870 in West Ham. Plus a death for Benjamin Ansell 1865 West Ham.

Actually, I can't find any of the Ansell family on the 1871 census - not even Mary.

I must admit I thought that maybe Mary had been married before as we could'nt find a birth in the right place. Perhaps George did'nt know she had been married before!! and with her father being dead he would'nt have found out. But what about her mother??

Did you say Mary signed her name with an X on the marriage certificate?

If she actually signed her name maybe you can you can get a photocopy of the original, instead of the copy the GRO made out (maybe from Croydon) Then you could compare the Mary part of her signature to see if it could be the same person who married John William Tubb. That marriage certificate is on Ancestry's London Marriages.

Thanks Christina,
Joan is going to the Barking archives tomorrow so fingers crossed she may turn something up. She did say the archivist is extremely good, so here's hoping.