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Hi Dee, It seems very likely to me that Nickydownsouth's theory is correct. Mary Ansell's brother, Robert, was born in Barking. Maybe she believed she was also born there, or else she just preferred to say she was born there rather than Limehouse.

Mary Ansell's mother was called Sophia, which would tie in with her daughter being given that as a second name. Her father, Benjamin, died in 1865 (just looking at the BMDs).

On the 1881 census John William Tubb is living with his mother. He claims to be married but there's no wife living with him. So it's possible that Mary married George Scivier bigamously. She may have been scared to use the name Ansell again, so used Tubb but disguised it a bit. And claimed that was her maiden name as she wouldn't want her children to know she'd been married before. Just my thoughts.

George and Mary also had a daughter Elizabeth born 1886 and died in 1887 aged 2 years.

Bap
Name: Elizabeth Scivier
Mother: Mary Scivier
Father: George Scivier Carman
Birth: abt 1886
Baptism: 10 Mar 1886 - Wandsworth St Anne, Surrey
Address Dunti? Hills

Death
Elizabeth Scivier
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Date of Registration:Apr-May-Jun 1887
Age at Death: 2
Registration district: Wandsworth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 418

Well I have looked at both the certs Dee talks about but the thing that sticks in my mind is that on the marriage George says his father is deceased but it has his profession. Written down under the father of Benjamin, for Mary, it only has Deceased.

Many thanks Joan, all this help from everyone is heartwarming. Do you want me to e-mail the certificates to you?

In the old days would they have asked a woman if she had been married before or could she just have been asked if she was a spinster (and in Mary's case perhaps lied).
Or, perhaps Mary was the result of a one-night stand by her mother and gave Benjamins name if he was the man who brought her up? That might explain why there doesn't seem to be a birth certificate. She may have been led to believe that Benjamin was her dad and her birth certificate would have had just her mothers name on it. (This last little gem is courtesy of my son Tom!)

I am going to the Barking archives to-morrow I will take the details with me the archiver there is brill.

Another thought,
I can't tell whether Mary was illiterate or not.
On the marriage certificate in the part where it says this marriage was solemnized between us: It says:
George Scivier his X mark
Mary Tubess (although it's in exactly the same writing as on the rest of the certificate.)
What that means I don't know.
:S

Yes, Mary and Nicky they are both listed as Spinster and Bachelor. It just gets more weird doesn't it.

But why on two certificates it has the name Tubess and on Henriatta's birth it would say nee Ansell if that was her real maiden name.

In all census returns she is born in Barking Essex and not Limehouse Middlesex.

Sorry to sound so negative.

Are George and Mary down on marriage cert as batchelor and spinster?

Maryb

The marriage..

John William Tubbs { chimney sweep}
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Spouse Name: Mary Ausells { Ansell}
Spouse Age: 23
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 25 May 1874
Parish: St Paul, Paddington
County: Middlesex
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: John William Tubbs
Spouse Father Name: Benjamin Ausells { image says Ansell}

Benjamin is a Boat Builder


Nicky

possibly your Mary with father Benjamin?

When asked at her marriage for fathers name she would have said Benjamin....as her surname was Tubb at the time, thats what was written down.

ANSELL, Benjamin Head Married M 48 1813 Boot Maker
Ramsgate
Kent VIEW
ANSELL, Sophia Wife Married F 38 1823
Poplar
Middlesex VIEW
ANSELL, Benjamin Son M 9 1852 Scholar
Limehouse
Middlesex VIEW
ANSELL, Mary Daughter F 7 1854 Scholar
Limehouse
Middlesex VIEW
ANSELL, Robert Son M 4 1857 Scholar
Barking
Essex VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG09 Piece:
1055 Folio:
116 Page:
32

Registration District:
West Ham Sub District:
1 Stratford Enumeration District:
10 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Johns

Civil Parish:
All Saints West Ham Municipal Borough:
Address:
2, Angel Place, All Saints West Ham County:


Nicky

So this is presumably her prior marriage...???

Marriages Jun 1874 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANSELL Mary Kensington 1a 368
FARRINGTON Harry Kensington 1a 368
Seeley Mary Ann Kensington 1a 368
Tubb John William Kensington 1a 368



Nicky

dee...The entry you have found is the same one that i put on th top of page 2 of this thread...Marys maiden name was not entered on the record.

I think its perfectly feesable that Mary and George would have lied on the 1911 census about the amount of years married....my own gr grandparents did exactly the same .....5 children born before the marriage, so they added on 7 years..I have the cert. that proves different.


Beginning to wonder if Mary was a little liberal with the truth......... if the christening record for marylebone for Mary Sophia Tubb posted by Tempest is in fact your Mary, then she has been married before to a John william Tubb......no wonder we can`t find her birth record.

Think that is the same Mary Sophia who became Scivier when her mother married George and then married Stanley Percy White in 1896...the fact he is witness at her brothers marriage really does prove that.

Did Mary say she was spinster on her marriage to George?


Nicky

Guys,
Have found this on CLDS records:
1881 Saint Lukes, Woodside, Croydon, Surrey.
Parents: George Scivier, Mary
K15404-1
1067533
Do these records show the entirety of information, it's just that if Mary's maiden name was on it they would probably have included it wouldn't they?Is there a way I can get a copy of this from LDS do you know?

Just found age discrepancies for Mary and George in each census.
In 1911 she is 60 and George is 64. born, Barking, Essex.
In 1901 she is 49 and George is 57.(not in the family home but is a servant). born Barking.
In 1891 she is 42 and George is 40. born Essex, Barking.
In 1881 she is 29 and George is 33. born Essex, Barking.
On wedding cert. in 1879 age for George is 32 and Mary 26.
On the 1881 census they would not have give Mary's age as 3 if they had wanted to cover up the fact that she was born before the marriage would they?

I have just looked at the 1911 census again and George and Mary put 36 years for length of marriage which would put the marriage at1875. But the marriage certificate clearly states 1879. Sorry to muddy the water even more. (Or could that have been to cover up the fact that 2 of the children were born prior to their marriage?)

As far as I can see she is always listed in the census returns as just Mary. Just worked out acronym MMN, Duh! (Now you can see why I need all the help I can get . :D

Nicky,
Waht does MMN stand for?

George Robert Scivier married 5/8/1900 in Summers town Wandsworth to Alice Cullip.
Witness to marriage Stanley Percy White.

Mary Sivyer A/M/J 1877 Croydon 2a 237. Is this there 1st daughter who married Stanley Percy White?

George Robert's age 22 = 1878 so he too was born before marriage but in his fathers name??

The name must be someting close to Tubess as if it isn't why is it on marriage and birth certificate??

Maryb

that birth could be linked to this baptism

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Mary Sophia Tubb Name: Mary Sophia Tubb
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1877
Baptism Date: 7 Nov 1877
Father's name: John William Tubb
Mother's name: Mary Tubb
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Marylebone
Borough: Westminster

address is workhouse
father's occupation is a chimney sweep