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My Great Great Grandparents, Thomas Speer and Jane Breen, had four children -
John James born 1857
Thomas born 1860
Thomas born 1864 (my great grandfather)
Isabella Catherine born 1868
All were born in Co. Fermanagh, N. Ireland.

What I'm trying to find is the death of Thomas born in 1860. I'm guessing he died and that's why my great grandfather was also named Thomas. I can't find a death anywhere.

Thanks.

I don't think you'll find a civil record for the death- although there could be burial records:

https://www.irishgenealogy.ie

"The years covered by the release of the historic records of Births, Marriages and Deaths are:

Births: 1864 to 1916

Marriages: 1870* to 1941

Deaths: 1878* to 1966

*The General Register Office are currently working on updating further records of Marriages dating back to 1845 and Deaths dating back to 1864.These will be included in future updates to the records available on the website."
---------------------------

Birth of Thomas (1864)

Thomas Speer
Born: 19th March 1864
District: Ederney, Irvinestown, Fermanagh
Address: Cronienbun
Father: Thomas Speer (Farmer)
Mother: Jane Speer (formerly Breen)
Informant: Eliza Speer, Cronienbun. (Sister)
----------------------------

The children were baptised in Lack or Colaghty C.of I. Church- There are transcriptions for baptisms here:

http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/church2.htm

Unfortunately I don't see transcriptions for burials there.

Burials at ST. MARYS CHURCH, ARDESS are only transcribed to 1858:

http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/churches/ardess-burials.htm
---------------------------

Thomas was widowed when he married Jane- looks like he had more children with his previous wife, Mary. (children: Mary (Maria), Eliza, and another child born 1848). Thomas' wife Mary was buried in 1848 at St Mary's Church, Ardess.

Thanks Austin. It looks like it is a dead end, but I can't see any other reason but that the first Thomas died, to call the next child Thomas too.
The info regarding Thomas' first wife is interesting ... I did know that he was a widower when he married Jane and that there was a child in 1848 but I didn't know about the other two - Mary and Eliza. Where did you find this info? Someone on Ancestry had Thomas married to a Mary Bell in 1837 but I haven't been able to confirm that.

Thanks again for your help.

I think it's reasonable to assume the Thomas born 1860 died before the next Thomas was born.

The baptisms of Mary and Eliza are transcribed here under Lack or Colaghty births:

http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/church2.htm

Mary baptised 28th January 1844
Eliza baptised 2nd November 1845
Child? baptised 25th February 1848

Mary (wife of Thomas) buried 26th February 1848 age 31
------------------------------------

Thomas' child Mary (listed as Maria on her marriage) married Patrick Maginnis in a Catholic Chapel in 1873:

Marriage: July 17th 1873
Roman Catholic Chapel of Blackbog, Ederney, Fermanagh

Maria Speer (full age)
Residence: Croneenbun
Father: Thomas Speer- Farmer (alive)

Patrick Maginnis (full age) - farmer
Residence: Drum?ose
Father: Philip Maginnis- Farmer (alive)

Witnesses: James Morris & Mary Irvine
-------------------------------

Mary and Patrick Maginnis had child James 1874
---------------------------------

I don't have all the details, but I'm pretty certain Thomas' other daughter, Eliza, married Alexander Thompson in 1869 (Irvinestown).

I'll take another look in the morning

Wow Austin, that's great, thank you. I know that Thomas was definitely a farmer in Croneen Bun.

https://www.genesreunited.co.za/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1367258?d=asc

(bit of background reference, if anything helps!)

Chris :)

OK, just back tracking a little.

Thomas with eldest son John in 1901:

Residents of a house 7 in Croneen (Lack, Fermanagh)

Thomas Spear Head of Family Widowed 86 1815 Farmer, Fermanagh
John Spear Son Married 43 1858 Fermanagh
Anne Jane Spear Daughter in Law Married 44 1857 Fermanagh
--------------------------------------

Death of Thomas (December 1903- registered 1904):

Thomas Speer
23rd December 1903
Place: Cronien, Ederney, Fermanagh
Age: 89 (Widower) Farmer
Cause: Probably old age, no medical attendant
Informant: John J Speer (son, Cronien)
---------------------------------

In the thread Chris posted you said you had Thomas' Will. I'm not seeing it. I can see the entry for a Thomas Speer that died 15th Nov 1903- but he was a bachelor farmer age 78 at Cronienbun.

Does the will not list his other children?

There are also these baptisms listed on Rootsweb

Anne Spear
Baptised: 8/4/1838
Father: Thomas Spear
Mother: Mary not listed
Abode: Cronian (Croneen?)

William Henry Speer
Baptised: 20/10/1839
Father: Thomas? Speer
Mother: Mary not listed
Abode: Croneen Barr
------------------------------------------

If Thomas's father was Robert, I would've expected him to name a child Robert- although I'm not seeing it yet (unless the child born 1848 was Robert?).

On the marriage of Thomas Snr to Isabella Virtue, the witnesses are Robert Virtue and Robert Speer.- Have you found who this Robert Speer is?

Perhaps Robert was his son (the child baptised 1848?)- a possible marriage- I don't see the image so can't confirm it yet:

Name: Robert Speer
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Single
Age: 22
Birth Date: 1846
Marriage Date: 7 Jan 1868
Marriage Place: Ireland (Irvinestown, Fermanagh)
Father: Thomas Speer
Spouse: Catherine Hicks
FHL Film Number: 101522
Reference ID: p 227

(thought Robert rang a bell, lol)

Chris :)

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1363351

(only will reference below)

Ireland Calendars of Wills & Administrations 1858-1920 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Thomas
Last name Speer
Role Deceased
Deceased's name Thomas Speer
Deceased's death year 1903
Deceased's death date 15 Nov 1903
Primary beneficiary William Speer
County Fermanagh


Edits (hold on, below also!)

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1313417?d=asc

AustinQ Report 13 Sep 2016 08:54

I presume this is the other Thomas? (1825- 1903)

Probate:

SPEER Thomas 21st August Probate of the Will of Thomas Speer late of Cronien-bun County Fermanagh Farmer who died 15th November 1903 granted at Dublin to William Speer farmer Effects £69

http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014914/005014914_00533.pdf

Thanks Chris- that's the only entry for a will I could find- but it's definitely not the right Thomas- as I said he was a bachelor. The Thomas we want died 23rd December 1903.

But Yvonne wrote (30 Jul 2017):

'I know for sure that my g grandfather b. 1864 is buried in Liverpool but his father is buried in Fermanagh. I have a copy of his will in which he bequeaths something to my grandfather (and yes, he was a farmer in Croneen)'

All seems a little strange, unless we're missing the entry somewhere. I think I'll wait for Yvonne to return.

EDIT: Lol, Chris- shows what a bad memory I have!!

Been searching high and low for the will (we recently moved house) and finally found what I was looking for. It's not a copy of the will but rather a copy of the probate I received in 2011. It is actually the probate of Thomas (b. 1864) who died in Liverpool in 1938, and named my grandfather as one of the persons entitled to a share. I guess that doesn't really help.

I agree that the Thomas who died 15 Nov 1903 with William as beneficiary, is not my Thomas, but I'll see if I can find out how he may be connected.

This is getting a bit confusing.

Looking at the 1901 census it looks as though the two Thomas' who died in 1903 lived next door or close to each other, one at 7 Croneen Bun and one at 8 Croneen Bun.