Genealogy Chat

Thank you for your help!

Morning everyone. I have found 2 Michael Lyons with the father called Patrick born in Roscommon. One in 1862 and one in 1857. Which one would be the correct one?! The death certificate and 1911 census say he was 50 years old meaning 1862 would make sense. On other previous censues they put his estilated birth year at around 1858. His marriage certificate in 1883 says he was 24 so approx 1859.
On the earlier Irish birth, the mother's name is Eleanor, which would also potentially make sense as his eldest daughter Ellen's (the same one on his death certificate) legal name on her birth certificate was actually Eleanor (but they called her Ellen and her mother's name was also Ellen). Am I jumping to conclusions again by thinking his mother might have been Eleanor?

Censuses say:
1861 Roscommon (1911); 1861 Ireland (1901); 1859 Ireland (1891); 1858 Ireland (possibly, in 1881 census).
Death record suggests c1862-3.

Even IF one of those two births is the correct one, it's really impossible to say which, although the one with mother Eleanor is tempting.

But there's no way to prove which one, if either, might be the right one.

Yes... I agree it is tempting to think it might be that one. Thanks again!

What was the occupation of the father named on Michael’s marriage certificate?

Does it tally with that of either of the fathers on the birth/baptism records?

Re the 15X code (even though that's not your family) -

"Before the census schedules reached the punch-card girls, however, each one was examined by a clerical officer who made annotations in a distinctive green ink. Presumably, green was chosen as a colour it was thought unlikely that householders would use it when filling in their forms. Principal among the green-ink annotations is the coding of occupation, but ****** you may see others in different parts of the forms."
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=857404.0

Still doesn't explain that particular code, unfortunately.


But-
Other people with Irish ancestors have asked about it, too. It does seem to indicate nationality:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Genealogy/comments/swcece/15x_on_1921_census/

Google's AI answer:

"In the 1921 census of Ireland, "15X" is a code used to denote the area referred to as "Southern Ireland," which essentially represents the territory that later became the Irish Free State following the partition of Ireland; meaning it signifies the majority of the island excluding Northern Ireland."


I'm not sure where that "information" is from, especially as there was no 1921 Census in Ireland - but it's interesting.

Searching the 1921 Census for people born in Ireland (ie - entering Ireland as the only search term), the above does seem to be true - though 14X appears too.
14X seems to be Northern Ireland, and 15X "Southern" Ireland.

A few of the search results:

Co Down - 14X
Dublin - 15X
Belfast 14X
Cork 15X
Londonderry - 15X scored out, and replaced by 14X (confused enumerator as Londonderry is on the border!)
Kildare 15X
Mayo 15X


In the course of looking at those, I notice that people born in Wales have the annotation X or 0X.

People born in Scotland are 10X.

People born in America - a four-digit number starting with 84, and the other two numbers depending on where in USA they were born.

Russia - four digit number starting 42.

France - 4040

Haven't tried other nationalities.

Just seen someone b. Allahbad, India..... 2010

A nationality code is - by definition - an indication of a person's nationality ONLY

The info in this case is totally irrelevant, as the person to whom it relates is NOT the one being researched

Yes, I know - it was just an interesting question to follow up.

Absolutely............. ;-) ;-)

My comments were intended more for the OP, as clarification

Thank you! That's great! So I was found out his son's dpcuments again: his son Thomas Lyons' marriage certificate, lists his father as Michael Thomas Lyons... I think it's him on the 1921 census and they just added him despite him being dead for some reason. It's definitely my great grandmother's name on that certificate. Nothing else I have includes a middle name.

1921 Census Of England & Wales
65, Haddingley Hill, Sandal, Sandal Magna, Yorkshire (West Riding), England

Thomas Lyons Head Male 1887 33 Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England Postman Postman G P O
Mary Lyons Wife Female 1891 29 Wakefield, Yorkshire, England Home Duties -
Marie Lyons Daughter Female 1916 5 Dewsbury, Yorkshire, England - -
Thomas Lyons Son Male 1919 1 Wakefield, Yorkshire, England - -
Michael Thomas Lyons Grandfather Male 1848 73 Galway, Ireland Colliery Labour Surface Retired South Kirkby Coll Coy


1911 Census For England & Wales
26 King Street South Kirkby Wakefield, South Kirkby, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (West Riding), England
John William Lyons Head Married Male 28 1883 Coal miner hewer Street House Yorks
Charlotte Ellen Lyons Wife Married Female 34 1877 - Mexbro Yorkshire
John William Lyons Son - Male 4 1907 - Rotherham Yorkshire
Thomas Joseph Lyons Son - Male 0 1911 - South Kirkby Yorks
Michael Thomas Lyons Father of husband Widower Male 65 1846 Pit screens above surface Kilkerin County Galway Ireland


AND................................................your relation, you say

1911 Census For England & Wales
59 Walker Lane, Derby, Derbyshire, England

Michael Lyons Head Widower Male 50 1861 Malster Ireland Roseconnor
Mary Lyons Daughter Single Female 20 1891 Wire braider Derby
Jack Lyons Son Single Male 12 1899 - Derby
William Lyons Son Single Male 8 1903 - Derby
Ellen Allen Daughter Married Female 26 1885 Cotton winder Derby
William Allen Son Single Male 4 1907 - Derby

Hmmmm... I don't know, it seems strange. I just looked up rootsireland, there it's not giving me a Michael Lyons son of Patrick Lyons for Kilkerrin- only different place names in Galway. In the first 1921 census with Thomas and Mary, that's my great grandmother Mary V Monaghan (HER father's family was originally from Galway). I don't recgnise any of the names with the John and Charlotte 1911 census.

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
2 Court, 4, Bold Lane, St Werburgh, Derby, Derbyshire, England
Michael Lyons Head Married Male 32 1859 Labourer malt house Ireland
Ellen Lyons Wife Married Female 26 1865 - Derby, Derbyshire, England
Ellen Lyons Daughter - Female 6 1885 Scholar Derby, Derbyshire, England
Thomas Lyons Son - Male 4 1887 Scholar Derby, Derbyshire, England
Mary Lyons Daughter - Female 0 1891 - Derby, Derbyshire, England

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
4, Chapel Street, Derby, Derbyshire, England
Michael Lyons Head Married Male 40 1861 Farm laborer Ireland
Ellen Lyons Wife Married Female 35 1866 - Derby, Derbyshire, England
Ellen Lyons Daughter Single Female 16 1885 Cotton winder Derby, Derbyshire, England
Thomas Lyons Son Single Male 14 1887 Gimper Derby, Derbyshire, England
Mary Lyons Daughter - Female 10 1891 - Derby, Derbyshire, England
John Lyons Son - Male 2 1899 - Derby, Derbyshire, England

LYONS, ELEANOR GORDON
GRO Reference: 1885 M Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 596

LYONS, JOHN GORDON
GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 533

LYONS, THOMAS GORDON
GRO Reference: 1886 D Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 557

LYONS, MARY GORDON
GRO Reference: 1890 J Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 527

LYONS, JOHN GORDON
GRO Reference: 1899 J Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 610

LYONS, JAMES GORDON
GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 585

Marriages Mar 1883 (>99%)
GORDON Ellen Derby 7b 779
LYONS Michael Derby 7b 779

How old was Michael?

What was his father's occupation?

Yes that's them. On Michael's marriage certificate, it says he was a labourer, aged 24 on his wedding in 1883 (so born about 1859ish).

The reason you don't recognise the names with John & Charlotte is probably because they are a different family. Do please take note of the age of that Michael - and his occupation

I asked what the father's occupation was on the marriage cert, so you can cross-reference with the births/baptisms you've found

I'm sorry, but I can't think that anyone would include a long-dead man on a census record.........especially one who was obviously literate and would know what info was required

There are instances in 1911 where deceased children have been listed, but that was a result of the question asked about numbers of children born in marriages

It certainly is a strange situation..............perhaps you should start again from yourself and work backwards.....just double-checking every bit of info to satisfy yourself that you haven't made an error. It's easily done - especially with common names.

Thank you <3

Just for INFO.........following-up on the other family


Marriages Dec 1903 (>99%)
LYONS John William Doncaster 9c 1319
Wilby Charlotte Ellen Doncaster 9c 1319

Image of cert is on FMP

Groom's father MICHAEL - occupation Coke burner, which fits with mining-type occs on censuses

Your Michael was in the brewing trade, apparently



???????????

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Nether Green, Dronfield, Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

Michael Lyons Head Married Male 37 1854 Coke burner Ireland
Michael T Lyons Son - Male 11 1880 Scholar Normanton, Yorkshire, England
John W Lyons Son - Male 9 1882 Scholar Normanton, Yorkshire, England
Thomas Lyons Son - Male 4 1887 Scholar Whittington, Derbyshire, England