Genealogy Chat

I have been working with my grandfather recently to document our family tree and I seem to have hit a wall. His grandfather has his mother and father on his birth certificate as Mary (approx.55) and Neil (approx.69). My grandfather was told that one of the daughters of Mary and Neil, Emma, was actually his grandfathers birth mother but was raised as a sister instead. He was always told that this was a result of relations that were had with an unknown farmhand. This is who I am trying to find as this has been a question mark in the family tree for a long time. My grandfather has his dna results on ancestry and we have been monitoring for any potential matches but it still is showing Mary and Neil as suggested parents. Any tips on where to go from here?

Not sure that anyone could even try to help with the matter unless full names, birth years and locations are provided.

Reading your post, it would seem to me that if a child of Neil and Mary was the mother, the DNA would be VERY similar to that of their children.

(I know almost nothing about DNA, and am, frankly, not really interested, but am applying logic)

I don’t know how you would identify a ‘farmhand’ five or six generations in the past, but I wish you luck in your quest

Do you have all census records for all family members?

What are numbers in your post intended to convey?

ADDED 21.22

Looks like you’ve edited - their ages, I presume? In which case, it’s unlikely that they were the parents, although not impossible. When was the last child BEFORE the grandfather born…how many years earlier?

If you gave some actual details, it would all be much less speculative………..

A baby at 55 is very unlikely.

When you say the dna results suggest that Mary & Neil Were the parents do you mean associated trees show that,

DNA matches could lead you back to show that the mother comes from one of the sisters, but not necessarily which one.

For the farmhand, have you found other matches that are about the same but go a different route,

This can all get much more difficult to work out as you go further back.

Hannah, sorry, should have welcomed you to Genes and the boards.

Now that I have written this down on paper I can see that it is going to be very difficult.

I don’t know how old your grandfather is but it could be that very few of his generation have taken a dna test.

Your grandfathers second cousins share great grandparents with him - this, as I read it, would be one of the daughters generation. If he shares a group of near matches at this level it might answer part of the question. His 3rd cousins would come from his great grandparents.

It might help if your parent also takes the test. Also a chart showing how the generations work would probably help you.

Added: go to the home page,go to the 20 top family history tips on the left, then go to article - Where do I begin - there is a How are we related chart in there.

Hi all! Thank you so much for your tips! I am very new to this whole process so I was unsure what would be helpful! I am working on finding the father of Cyril Ernest McLean (switched to MacLean at some point but it is unclear when exactly that switch happened) (Born 1878 and died 1945). He was born and lived his entire life in Osnabruck, Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry United Counties, Ontario, Canada. His listed parents are Neil McLean (1810-1894) and Mary Morgan (1823-1909). The person that my grandfather was told was Cyril's actual mother is Emma Caroline McLean (later Adams) (1854-1933). I have census information from 1871 and from 1880 which has not led me anywhere as of yet. Cyril's closest sibling is listed as Arthur Douglas McLean (1872-1947) and Mary Margaret McLean (1860-1944) so I have a feeling that Arthur Douglas McLean may be a similar situation but I have so far not been able to find any further information there either.

For INFO

1901 census
Name Mary McLean
Gender Female
Racial or Tribal Origin Scottish
Nationality Canadian
Marital Status Widowed
Age 77
Birth Date 21 Jun 1823
Birth Place Ontario
Residence Date 1901
Province Ontario
Residence Place Canada
Relation to Head of House Head
Religion Baptist
Occupation Farmer
Can Read Y
Can Write Y
Can Speak English Y
District Cornwall and Stormont
District Number 53
Sub-District Osnabruck
Sub-District Number 5
Dwelling Number 13
Family Number 15
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Mary McLean 77 Head
Cyril McLean 23 Son DoB 02 Apr 1877
Agnes McLean 40 Daughter DoB 23 Nov 1860

1881 census
Name Neil McLean
Gender Male
Origin Scotch
Marital Status Married
Residence Age 70
Birth Date 1811
Birth Place Scotland
Residence Date 1881
Residence Place Osnabruck, Stormont, Ontario, Canada
District Number 101
Sub-District Number A
Division 3
Occupation Farmer
Religion Baptist
Household Members (Name) Age
Neil McLean 70
Mary C McLean 58
James McLean 32
Catherine McLean 30
Agnes McLean 20


1871

Name Neil Mc Lean
[Neil McLean]
[McLean]
Gender Male
Marital Status Married
Widowed M
Origin Scottish (Scotish)
Age 58
Birth Date 1813
Birth Place Scotland
Residence Place Osnabruck, Stormont, Ontario
District Number 72
Subdistrict a
Division 03
Religion Baptist
Occupation Farmer
Family Number 169
Household Members (Name) Age
Neil Mc Lean 58
Mary C Mc Lean 48
Jennet E Mc Lean 23
James H Mc Lean 21
Catherine A Mc Lean 19
Donald A Mc Lean 17
Emma Mc Lean 17
Mary M Mc Lean 15
Flora A Mc Lean 11

Just for info.........................

Emma married Adams in 1885 in Minnesota

Cannot see her - or Cyril or Arthur - in 1881 Canadian census

Unfortunately there will be no paper proof to show who the father actually is unless there is a court case. Usually to get support from the natural father.
I think it unlikely in this case.

DNA is usually the only way prove this one way or another. You need to study the dna matches. It will be hard work as you will probably have to work on what are called ‘dirty trees’ for the matches to see where you get. You should also work on trees down from Neil and Mary as well as those up from the matches. Hopefully they will connect. Ancestry allow you to group your matches by adding them to named groups indicted by colour spots.
However, matches to your grandfather are likely to be quite distant and after third cousin matches they are considered more unreliable.
Read up as much as you can on dna., and remember that the further away you get fewer relatives have enough matching dna to show up. As an odd example, I have matches shared with my first cousin but my sibling doesn’t.

Ancestry suggestions as to your relationship gets less accurate as you get further away so don’t completely rely on that and don’t rely on attached trees -
They will only have what us found on paper records.

I've had to change machines so I can get this link in properly - it is the latest DNA Masterclass I can find from Lost Cousins - it is very informative and worth plowing through;
https://www.lostcousins.com/newsletters2/jul23news.htm#Masterclass

Have you found Cyril on Find a Grave website ( google his name - it should come up). There is lots of information which will help you greatly in working a family tree.
I found it fascinating.

If you want to investigate the Mull heritage the look for mullgeneology.co.uk

I have found Cyril on find a grave and I have actually visited his grave in the past! I am not finding too much new information at this point though. In talking to my grandfather though, he did say that he is pretty sure that Arthur was an illegitimate child born to Emma's older sister Catharine Ann McLean.

Unless you can find birth certificates, I don’t think you will be able to verify any of the conjecture about the identity of the mother(s) of the two male children, and certainly not the father(s). Some secrets remain just that - secrets.

Whatever happened to old fashioned shotgun weddings ;-)

Check to see how close to births the daughters married.

The only way now is to gather dna from descendants of each of the siblings and see if anything comes up.

And remember - all this could just be family gossip with no truth behind it.

If Arthur was Catherine's child, one would expect him to be with her in 1881 - he isn't

Not necessarily. If Catherine wasn’t married Arthur could have been passed on to someone better able to look after him.

1881 census posted 27th Jan….re-posting

Name Arthur McLean
Gender Male
Marital Status Single
Age 19
Birth Year abt 1872
Birth Place Ontario
Residence Date 1891*********
Residence Place Osnabruck, Cornwall and Stormont, Ontario, Canada
Relation to Head Son
Religion Baptist
Can Read Y
Can Write Y
French Canadian No
Father Neil McLean
Father's Birth Place Ontario
Mother Mary McLean
Mother's Birth Place Ontario
Division Number 3
Enumeration District 56
Page number 32
Neighbors View others on page
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Neil McLean 82 Head
Mary McLean 68 Wife
Aggie McLean 29 Daughter
Arthur McLean 19 Son
Cyril McLean 12 Son