Genealogy Chat

see below

Can someone help me put the last piece in this bit of my tree jigsaw please?. I have Caroline Gilman (sometimes Gillman) b.1847, Hadleigh Essex, d. of John Gilman a famer She is married to James Gibbens b 1852, Westminster, and pregnant with her second child, when she finds her husband dead at the bottom of a flight of stairs. Her baby, James Gibbens b 1879 is born in Woolwich Plumstead. Mary Ann Back was the informant and present at the birth. Family legend has it that Caroline moved back to her Hadleigh with her baby, and that the elder boy, Archie, was 'adopted' by a member of her family and remained in Plumstead. I have m-i-l's box of photos, a lot of which are of people called 'French' and 'Crighton', and are supposedly rellies of Caroline. There is one in particular of 'old lady French' who brought up 'Uncle Arch'. I also have a memorial card for Alice Mary French who died in 1931 in Plumstead aged 68 - I think she was 'old lady French' and her maiden name was Back. I also have the MC in Bromley in 1884 of Florence Back aged 24 (father was Henry a wheelwright), to Henry Crighton aged 23; his father was Charles Crighton, a groom. I have been struggling to find a connection between Caroline Gillman and the French or Crighton families - but this weekend my longed for certs arrived - among them, much to my excitement, was the BC for Alice Mary Back, b1862, Plumstead. Her parents were Henry Back, wheelwright, and Mary Ann Back, nee GILLMAN !! Yippee! Except - I STILL cannot find the necessary familial connection between Caroline and Mary Ann Gillman, in spite of my delight at finding they shared a surname. I suppose I shall have to find Mary Ann's birth or marriage cert to find her father's name and then try to connect the two fathers. Has anyone any other ideas? Any help greatly appreciated. Rosi

Have you looked for these women on the censuses?

Yes Helen, I have, but cannot find a family that has a farmer John as a father and Caroline and Mary Ann as daughters. I know Caroline was born in Hadleigh, Essex. I diont have the info for Mary Ann. and bot names are quite common- Mary Ann especially so. :) Rosi

Can only suggest you check the parish baptism registers to see if Caroline & Mary Ann were baptised in the same parish. Of course, Mary Ann might not be Caroline's sister, she might be a cousin or other female relative.

Can't you find the Back baby in 1871 and see where her mother Mary ann says she was born?

Thanks Helen - That should work - I'll give that a go! Rosi

O Dear ! It's getting murkier! I did find the right family on the 1871. Thankyou again for your suggestion Helen. Mary A Back, wife, b @1837, Hadfield, Essex, ( I think Hadfield is Hadleigh - but image shows Hadfield). Cannot find a birth reference for her- or a marriage. Did find another Henry Back to a Gilman marriage tho - in 1913 alas - to Yvonne J. Hope popped up for a second there! Rosi

Hi Rosi, See what you think of the following. If they are all the same Caroline then I think I have found her with Mary Ann in 1841: (Caroline seems to have been economical with the truth when giving her age on later censuses) 1871 Census Caroline Gilman servant aged 25 born Hadleigh Essex 1861 Census Caroline Gilman servant aged 20 born Hadleigh Essex 1851 Census Hadleigh John Gilman head 55 ag lab born Essex Hadleigh Sarah Gilman wife 50 Suffolk Sudbury John Gilman son 27 ag lab Essex Hadleigh Wm Gilman son 25 ag lab Essex Hadleigh Caroline Gilman daughter aged 12 Essex Hadleigh, Joseph Gilman son 10 Essex Hadleigh 1841 Census Hadleigh John Gilman 41 ag lab Sarah Gilman 35 John Gilman 15 William Gilman 14 Susannah Gilman 11 Sarah Gilman 11 Elizabeth Gillman 9 >Mary Ann Gilman 7 Marian Gilman 5 >Caroline Gilman 3 Joseph Gilman 2months 1841 doesn't give relationships but they look like sisters.

Judith, Thanks - yes that does look likely doesn't it! Fancy having one daughter called Mary Ann and another called Marian! Hmm I see what you mean re Carolines age! With that as 'evidence' I think I'll add the new info to my tree. Would like to confirm Mary Anns marriage to Henry Back though, and get the BC - just to tie the ends, Hve checked through Henry Backs and Mary Ann Gil(l)mans, as well as Mary Gil(l)mans, there are quite a lot of both tho, and failed to find it. Thankyou very much for finding the 1841 entry. It almost fits snugly now! and I am very pleased. You are a star. PS thanks also for the pm! :)