Genealogy Chat

I'm probably missing the blindingly obvious but something doesn't add up!

1891 census Hyde Cheshire Robert Tooley HEAD 1852 b. Hyde, Cheshire Matilda ' WIFE 1855 b. Manchester Beatrice ' DAUG 11, Hyde Robert ' SON 8, Hyde Maggie ' DAUG 6 Birmingham James Henry ' SON 4, Holloway, London Sarah Hannah ' DAUG 4mths, Hyde Cheshire Robert Tooley married Matilda Warburton 9 Nov 1877 at Godley St John, Hyde. Robert died in 1892. 5yrs later Matilda Tooley married to Daniel Potts although I cannot find them in 1901. I can find birth records for all the children as well as a child who was born and died during the time the family were in London - all except Beatrice although I have her baptism record. Fanny Beatrice Tooley 5 Jan 1879. There is no trace of Robert on the 1881 census and the only Matilda I can find is living near to several members of Robert's family but with a daughter Ellen Ann abt 1879. Have I got the wrong Matilda in 1881? Did Ellen Ann become Fanny Beatrice? And can anyone find them in 1901? Fresh eyes much appreciated! Lou

Lou: this must be Ellen Ann's birth reg. Is the date you gave of 5th Jan 1879 for Fanny Beatrice a birth date or baptism date? If birth date, then she and Ellen Ann can't be the same person, but if baptism date, then they could be. Though why she would be called Ellen Ann two years later I can't think... Births Dec 1878 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Tooley Ellen Ann Stockport 8a 75 Kate.

Hi Lou, I assume you've already found this birth but just in case ... Name: Tooley, Ellen Ann Record Type: Births Quarter: December Year: 1878 District: Stockport County: Cheshire Lancashire Volume: 8a Page: 75 I'll keep looking for a bit on the censuses as I'm stuck on my lot - again!!! Louise

This is Ellen Ann in 1901, I found a marriage for Ellen Ann Tooley and Peter Lee or Tom Mellor Jun 1896 at Stockport. But whether she is Fanny Beatrice I have no idea. I was hoping she would have some rellies living with her! Name Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Ellen A Mellor abt 1879 Stockport, Cheshire, England Wife Hyde Cheshire Thomas Mellor abt 1878 Barnsley, Yorkshire, England Head Hyde Cheshire Kate.

The first thing that looks strange is the move away then back to hyde-off topic i know. Is therea chance that 2 families have been stitched together?

Don't know whether you already have this, but it could be Robert's birth reg: Births Jun 1854 --------------------------------------------------------------------- TOOLEY Robert Stockport 8a 16 There were very few Tooleys around in Cheshire at that time, weren't there?! Kate.

On the 1891 census, Robert was a Plasterers Labourer. Haven't got him in 1881 and he was deceased before the 1901. He was just stated as a Labourer on his marriage cert and on the baptism record for Fanny Beatrice so nothing that would have taken him all over the country, I wouldn't have thought. On my ggrandmother's marriage certificate. he's been promoted to a Plasterer which is interesting as he'd been dead 12 years by that point! According to her baptism record, Fanny was born Nov 3rd 1878. Interestingly, the GRO and Stockport RO have no certificate for Ellen Ann Tooley, that qtr or reference but I've checked the PR entry for the Ellen Tooley marriage in the past and the father's name space is blank. And yep, that's Robert's birth registration. Father Hugh Tooley, mother Ellen.

Hi Lou, I've got the Potts/Tooleys in 1901 - mistranscribed as 'Botts'!!! Matilda is also lying about her age. There's a Daniel & Matilda Botts plus Maggie and Sarah Tooley. Let me know your email if you want me to send the image. Louise --- Name: Matilda Botts Age: 42 Estimated birth year: abt 1859 Relation: Wife Household: View other family members Gender: Female Where born: Stretford, Cheshire, England Civil parish: Denton Ecclesiatical parish: Christchurch County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: View Image Condition as to marriage: View Image Education: View Image Employment status: View Image Occupation: View Image Source information: RG13/3791 Registration district: Ashton-under-Lyne Sub-registration district: Denton ED, institution, or vessel: 10 Folio: 73 Page: 35 (click to see others on page) Household schedule number: 216

Hi Louise Thanks, will email you. Matilda WAS born in 1859, which is why I wondered whether the Matilda in 1881 was the right one, born 1855 Lou

Come to think of it, her marriage certificate to Robert says OF FULL AGE. She was 18. Wonder whether she kept up the pretence of being 4yrs older than she actually was cos Robert didn't know she was 'underage' when they married and they didn't have parental consent?

Louise Matilda has arrived safely, thank you Lou

Lou: 'Matilda told such dreadful lies, It made one gasp and stretch one's eyes'. I wonder whether Matilda insisted on naming the child Ellen Ann and had her registered as such, and her husband insisted it should be Fanny Beatrice and had her baptised as such? So when the child was only with her mother on the census she had the name her mother gave her but when with her father he filled the form in and put down the name he gave her? Then when she left home she decided she liked 'Ellen Ann' better. But I am still mystified as to why no birth certificate for Ellen Ann can be found if there is an entry in the index. Kate.

I'm sure you already have this from Cheshire BMD: Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1878 Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Reference TOOLEY Ellen Ann Stockport First Stockport ST1/82/85 Kate.

Hi Kate It was on Cheshire BMD that I first found the birth registration but when I contacted Stockport, they said sorry no cert. I later discovered (when ordering a different ggrandmother's death cert) that HYDE originally came under Stockport but when the boundaries changed in 1974, it moved to be covered by the Ashton under Lyne reg district and all the registers had been transferred. I contacted Ashton as its my local office and they know me soooooo well there by now (as my bank manager cringes!) but they said the same, that they didn't have the entry either. The lady I spoke to was quite honest in admitting that 'some' records had gone astray during the transfer period and it may be that I just unlucky in that one of them was one of mine. Story of my life! However, when I tried ordering it from the GRO, they said the vol and page number I had quoted didn't correspond with a birth for Ellen Ann Tooley so they couldn't issue the certificate. Without knowing exactly how she's named on it, I'm snookered! Interesting theory about the parents dispute over the names though! Robert was one of 7 or 8 children and there may be others undetected. His parents married in 1851 and the 61 census is the earliest I have the family on. Robert is the eldest child located born in 1854 which leaves 3yrs from the marriage in which there may have been additional children. Could Ellen Ann possibly have been born to a sibling of Robert or possibly Matilda's but then Robert and Matilda raised her, thus changing her name. She was 3mths old at baptism which is old compared to when some of the others were done! The other freaky thing with this family too....Robert's parents Hugh Tooley and Ellen Rebecca Rylance married 2ns Nov 1851 St Nicholas Church, Liverpool. Its on the IGI, the GRO couldn't find the cert and someone kindly went to Liverpool RO to look up the entry for me and it wasn't there! Lou

Lou - FreeBMD has a marriage entry for Hugh Tooley Dec 1851 Liverpool vol 20 p 304, and on 1837 online there is a corresponding one for Ellen Rylands. (volume number given in Roman numerals as XX). (Her name is also given as Ellen Rylands on the IGI.) Did you specify Rylance as her surname when ordering the cert, and could this be why the GRO couldn't find it? Kate.

No cos I didn't know her maiden name for definite when I tried to order it. That was confirmed from Robert's birth cert. But the PR entry isn't there in the records at Liverpool either and there were other marriages on that date so its not that records were missing!