Genealogy Chat

Germaine I have an interesting book out of the library which gives a great deal of background information to Court cases at this time. It was not as it is now; various different people could bring a Prosecution and it was actually no-one's responsibility to do so, even the Police had to bring prosecutions in their own name.(PC Bloggs, etc). All Prosecutors were paid by Justices of the Peace which ultimately meant the Ratepayer, and as the JP was usually the biggest ratepayer in the area, he was dead keen to see that costs were kept to the minimum. This lead to ridiculous situations, where no one would bring a prosecution against a suspected poisoner for instance, because the JP considered that the costs weould be too high, versus the chance of a conviction. This gradually changed over the years to the system we have now. I think what you have seen (and I have some in my family, too) is a sort of 'internal invoice' in the Court System and it is only incidentally to do with your rellie - it is more than possible that she did not have any legal representation at all.The Bill of Costs refers to the PROSECUTORS costs - whoever he was, maybe a Solicitor for the Hat Owner??? Mine, by the way, concerned the theft of a hankerchief, valued at 6d. The Prosecution Bill of Costs was for over £8.She was sentenced to 6 months hard labour. As daft then as it is now! Good hunting Marjorie

Will do Jane, As you say did she pay in kind !!! and what a big hat it must have been. I found a Liverpool site that had newspaper reprts fo Kirkdale Gaol so have emailed them to see if they have any for that year. Otherwise it will be wait for the hover-craft and hope I can find out something at Southport. Do you know what came to mind oh! the thought of it, new bonnet and Jack the Ripper, was speculation of him coming from Liverpool (Merrick I think his name). Lucky she was about 30 years earlier, or I may not be here LOL. Well food beckons Thanks again Germaine

Germaine, That was indeed a lot of money in those days - perhaps not an 'open and shut' case then?! Given her ....ahem ... err... well, profession, could the solictor have been paid in kind??? All I can say is that it must have been a really amazing hat!! When you find out, do please let me know, I'm intrigued! Meanwhile, happy hunting, regs Jane

Hiyah Well I have been and posted a request in Liverpool with a bit of luck someone will be going to the libray and may find something in the local papers. Hope so. thanks for the help Jane. Later this month they are hoping to run a hovercraft from Blackpool (just down the road ) to Southport so maybe I will be able to go and have a look at their library myself and find more out. It is only going to take minutes to get across the water instead of hours going by road. going to go and read now got a good book. Thanks again Germaine

Hi Jane . Yes it says she was done for feloney that is crossed out and then larceny put in. thing is it gets worse the M.M in goal is listed as a prostitute oh dear!!. Yes Ormskirk fits in perfectly that is the area where some f the family are from all in the Southort area where she was born . so it looks like this must have been her solicitor how could she afford a solicitor in those days don't suppose they got free ones did they. Perhaps she paid him with her ill gotten gains can't find the family betweent the birth of the last child till now and then they are scattered another bit is her brother ends up a vicar could go on would get very mixed up Thanks this is a help, will go and look for Welsby solicitor. Germaine Well looking at the list it looks as though she may well have pinched a hat one witness is a milliner the other a bazzar keeper and then a police seargant. Good idea about the papers think I may put a request on the liverpool site someone might be paying a visit and be able to find somehting in the papers. It looks like it may have happened in Southport so if it went to Liverpool may well have been in either paper. The bills were quite a bit I think for those days. one is for £6.19.1 and the other for £6.16.3 boy what a list of costs. What on earth did she pinch.

Germaine, Thanks for the further detail. Sounds like your Gt Grandma 'went down' for theft, then - oops! Wonder what it was that she nicked??! I reckon the person invoiced must have been her solicitor - that is if the system works the same way as today. But why it should be a 'Prosecutors Bill' I can't imagine .... unless she was found guilty and forced to pay the prosecution charges as well as her defence? Just idly 'googled' for Welsby and the A2A site was offered, so had a look. in 1860 there are a couple of WELSBYs being prosecuted for larceny - Peter and then Ellen W. Are you sure this surname isn't connected with your ancestor? Regs Jane PS: Just found a Mr WELSBY 'solicitor of Ormskirk' - my geography isn't too good, is that near Kirkdale?

hi Jane, What it was cutting a long story short I couldn't find my ggrandmother in 1861 someone found a M.M in gaol Kirkdale her details looked like they could be my gg grandmother Margaret Meadows, so after another hint I found the following on a2a Margaret Meadows Lancashire records Kirkdale 1860 I sent off for the records they are the Prosecuters bill. it names witness etc. It must be a police matter it says the Queen on the prosecution of John whittle (think that is the police man) against Magaret Meadows for larceny then it list all the costs. but hte Bill at the top says to ? Welsby wonder what he had to do with it . Have only got this today never thought of the papers maybe something in that area ? Bit slow on the typing sorry. Have got in touch with Liverpool records office before I got the report to see if they have anything from Kirdale gaol not heard yet. thanks Germaine

Germaine, Long shot, but have you tried putting either the prosecutor's name or the invoice addressee's name into the National Archives catalogue search engine? It might give you some ideas. Unless your research subject was connected in some way with the law, it sounds as though it must have been a private prosecution - ie a civil case. Also, if it was a hefty bill you might find a newspaper report about the case in a local newspaper - if you know where abd when the 'event' took place. Is there any more detail you can share? Regs Jane

Hiyah, I have got a copy of the Prosecutors Bill for a court case the bill is made out to a ? Welsby?. Would this be a person to do with the court or would it be someone belonging to the defendant. (the person who has to pay the bill). This is in 1861 does anyone know anything about the Prosectors Bills from then?. Thanks Germaine