General Chat

John and Cynthia,

Thank you both for your answers. I try hard to understand what the bible is telling me, but realize there can be many interpretations. I like to dig into a piece of scripture until it makes sense to me, and then I can simplify it in my mind, so that it registers - hopefully.

Thanks again,
Ruby.

Goodness me - I don't know where to start.... :-S


First of all, hello to everyone......and it's lovely to read all the comments.

Okay, I'll go back to last night.........

Joy, not sure how the union of the two churches is going to be honest. Haven't heard anything about it for ages. Mind you, these things can't be done overnight .


I can only speak for the C. of E. these days, but I know that anyone putting themselves forward for Ministry, has to undergo a lot of training. When they are first accepted for training, they have a choice (on advice), as to which college to go to.

Those who are of a 'low church' persuasion will go to a college which follows in that tradition, whilst those of a more 'catholic' leaning, will go to one which caters for that wing of the church.

I guess that, although I am happy enough about ecumenism, I do rather prefer the 'catholic' way of worship. Strange coming from one who was brought up in the Salvation Army........ :-D


John, I really don't have a 'leadership' role.....I just help out as and when required. That said, anyone who is involved with children in any way, has to undergo CRB training and have a CRB check.


Hi Ruby, I used to love it when my last church ran 'house groups' as it meant a lovely evening with nice people and you learned something into the bargain! They were always lead by the vicar though.

This is where I tend to be very, very careful before giving an opinion on anything Scriptural.

Over the years, I have heard so many people say......"I think this" or "I think that" and it's simply their own interpretation on Scripture......and it may right, or it may be way off course! That's why I tend to go for the tried and trusted explanations which have stood the test of time.


As far as Paradise is concerned, there are various views on the subject but, basically, the word is used in terms of ' future bliss, contentment, harmony' - that sort of thing.

The word appears only about three times in the NT and has been variously interpreted by scholars - who have, like Ruby, speculated between a terrestrial and a heavenly paradise. So, although one may have their theories on the subject, no one knows.......until...................


As for the thoughts on the resurrection of the dead, we have a book on the Letters to the Thessalonians...written by a much respected theologian - the late William Barclay.

Here, he is talking about Paul's answer to those who despair of death.

'Paul's answer lays down a great principle. If a man has lived in Christ and died in Christ, even if he is dead he is still in Christ and he will rise in Christ. This means that between Jesus Christ and the man who loves Him there is a relationship which nothing can break.

It is a relationship independent of time; a relationship which overpasses death.

William Barclay then goes on to say.....

The picture which Paul draws of the day when Christ will come is poetry. It is an attempt to put into words what is inexpressible and to describe what is indescribable.

(then there is a description of the picture - chariots in the sky etc.) and he continues:

We are not meant to take with crude and insensitive literalism that which is a seer's vision.

Like Rose, I believe in keeping things as simple as possible and, for me, this finale statement from William Barclay says it all...

It is not the details which are important. What is important is that in life and in death the Christian is in Christ, and that is a union which nothing can break.

~~~~to Joy, I can seeeee you :-)

:-) SueMaid

"I love you when you bow in your mosque, kneel in your temple, pray in your church. For you and I are sons of one religion, and it is the spirit." - Khalil Gibran

Am I invisible, John?

I'm a simple soul ( as my mum with her RC background used to say of herself)

but isn't this all making it too complicated?

Re Jesus descending to 'hell', that is the English interpretation of the word Hades surely, not the original...so it kind of beats me why anyone would use the later interpretation?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/february7/31.74.html

Besides, I think there is too much over analysis, you don't analyse love...if you have any sense ;-)

Keep it simple, you get closer. imho

Back in my box as I wasn't going to add to this thread again lol.

:-D :-D @ Kay

I dont think so John 10/10 I live by my human instincts as what I think is right towards others and not from what I see as just words from a book of something I do not belive in. :-D :-D.

"Jesus told the thief that today he (the thief) would be with Jesus in Paradise, but we know that Jesus first descended into hell"

Sorry, Ruby. Noticed when I read through my reply that I had not tackled your key question. Lazarus was told he would be with Jesus in heaven also. I think this is when the belief of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit (three in one) really applies.

"I and the Father are one" said Jesus to Pharisee leaders in gate of Temple. And they got very angry and tried to arrest him. So it is a person of God (the second personality, if you like) who is wrestling in hell with the devil. But the thief is with the Father that day in paradise above - hence "you will be with me in paradise TODAY". Although we pray about three distinct personalities of God, they are indivisible. Three in One, One in three. :-)

Ruby. What you describe about house groups is exactly how Wesley organised his (edit) Methodist Society within C of E. His objective was to strengthen the Anglican Communion, not weaken it. His members would be expected to attend their local parish church in the morning and take communion, then assemble in small classes to learn in the afternoon, to discuss the sermon and pray and search scriptures. And no doubt have a biscuit and a cuppa. I think each member paid a penny a week. And many could not afford a penny so class leader or a wealthier member of the class had to stump up the money for the poorer ones.

Of course, it put great pressure on the Vicar. He would be asked some quite deep theological questions by an ag lab as people left church. And quite a few Vicars had a head religion but did not have any great depth of spiritual understanding.

And the question you have asked is so deep and so important. I wonder if there is a simple answer. You may get many. I have my view, but it may be very wrong.

I think Jesus descended to hell for 3 days (Friday night, all Saturday, early hours of Sunday). He was very God, made human with a sinful nature yet he never ever sinned. He had already been tested by the devil. Now he actually went down into Hades and fought ferociously with him. The devil represents death and the last great enemy death was defeated. Routed. So no one any more needs to fear being defeated by death - the grave no longer held any terrors for those who knew (or would come to know) Jesus as their brother.

So the battle of Armageddon (which is to be played out at the end of the world) had already been won when Jesus rose from death that first Easter morning . For some reason, the devil is still allowed to petulantly flay his tail in our day. Many are attracted to him, but a few are not. And it is those few who are the "saved" remnant in our generation. And I think God is waiting for all his children (all the brothers and sisters of Christ) to be saved from the wiles of the devil. To be refined and prepared for heaven. There are still some he wants in our generation, and possibly the next one too.

And in the last day, all the living and the dead will be given perfect bodies and will rise to meet Jesus (who I think will be like the Jesus of Revelation - very fearsome looking, not a meek and mild shepherd). And Jesus will judge us all - nobody can escape his judgement. Those who have died in Christ, whose souls are already in heaven, will know their fate already. Perfect souls will be united with perfect bodies - free of pain, free of wrinkles, free of age. Perfect - as God intends us to be for eternity.

Hello everyone,

I too enjoy reading this thread - hope you'll allow me to add my bit. With John's mention today of John Wesley and Home Groups, I would like to tell you of my experience with a Home study group.

I am a member of a small country Methodist church, and I live in S. Carolina, having left my dear old home in Wiltshire in 1962. I attended chapel occasionally over the years, then, about 12 years ago, joined a small Home study group. I was very nervous at first, and quickly realized that, even with all the RI at school, and many years of Sunday school as a child, my knowledge of the Bible was minimal. I soon felt comfortable in asking questions, and came to enjoy our little Bible study time immensely. We met at a friend's house every Tue. morning for an hour and a half - 30 mins. chatting and an hour of study, 7 of us, around the kitchen table.. Once a month we had lunch together - usually a crock pot or two of soup or chili and wonderful desserts. Since we were all retirees, it was inevitable that members would probably pass away, and we disbanded about two years ago.

Shortly afterwards I joined a Sunday school class at church. We have classes for all age groups, and my class has about 12 participants. It's a great group, and our teacher is very knowledgeable. We meet for an hour before church, and we are all there to help one another. Our lesson yesterday was from Thess. 4 & 5. concerning Christ's return. We got into a discussion about Paradise. Is it above or below the earth? Jesus told the thief that today he (the thief) would be with Jesus in Paradise, but we know that Jesus first descended into hell, so it would seem that it must be below the earth. If anyone can explain it to me, please do so in simple terms. I have always understood that when I die, my soul will be immediately with Christ, which would be in Heaven? However, when Jesus returns, the dead in Christ will rise first to join Him, so does that mean that my soul will actually be with my remains, in the grave? I'm sure we all have our own understanding of it. Didn't mean to gabble on so.
Ruby.

Just a couple of quick points before I climb to bedsville.

Susan wiv. Thanks, honest. Absolutely no offence taken :-)

Cynthia - not an office holder? I think we would call your leadership involvement that of an office holder. It involves training of various forms. I have just done training in protecting the vulnerable with worship leaders, youth leaders, fellow local preachers, Sunday School teachers - we were all called office holders.

Kay. I think you could manage 10/10 judging by what you wrote. But commandments get very much simpler to remember but very much harder to obey in the New Testament :-( :-(

http://www.anglican-methodist.org.uk/history.htm

Found the link. Ann, I also remember that church in Central M Keynes - near M & S. and Library.

Have just been digging through some of the 74pp of a working document to bring Methodists back into the Anglican fold (we were kicked out of communion about 1800 - don't want to rake over old ground :-)). The writer ( a leading Anglican) said it was disgrace that St Paul had spent so much time and effort to stop the churches in Rome, Corinth, Thessalonica and Ephesus dividing and we split over a gnat's breath. Wesley always wanted Methodists to attend parish church in the morning and Methodist chapels and house groups in afternoon (so as not to clash with services in parish church).

I love Methodism. I breathe it. But I also love other denominations almost as much. And in India they did away with all these denominations and came together in CSI and CNI (Church of Southern India and Church of Northern India). All Protestant denominations worship together - Baptist pastors and Methodist Ministers were accepted as Anglican priests, local lay preachers were accepted as lay readers. And it seems to work well - churches are really bulging everywhere. :-) :-)

My daughter in law goes to a church in M Keynes which is ecumenical. I believe the denominations that worship there are Anglican, Baptist, what I still know as Congregational (But I know they have changed their name) and not sure about Methodist. I have been to services there and it is a lovely friendly, relaxed church which seems to maintain the elements of all the churches.

Glad you found the site, Cynthia, even though the link went awry. :)


John, re

(1) there was a working party trying to find a way of the Methodists and Church of England joining together and eventually forming one denomination.

I understand that discussions are ongoing.

(2) Anglican priests are often trained in Methodist theological colleges and Methodist Ministers are often trained in Anglican colleges. Both churches accept the training of the other.

Concerning training for clergy:
Sarum College, Salisbury http://www.sarum.ac.uk/ is where my husband trained for the NSM (non-stipendiary) URC (United Reformed Church) ministry; at the time of his training, his fellow students were URC, Anglican and Methodists.

Not so long ago there was a working party trying to find a way of the Methodists and Church of England joining together and eventually forming one denomination. Haven't heard much of that since I moved down to S Wales 6 years ago, but they were very keen on it in parts of Northants where I previously worshipped. In Silverstone, we would have joint evening services and Methodist local preachers and our Minister would preach to Anglicans and the Canon would preach to us Methodists. Some weeks we would be in the parish church, others in the Methodist chapel 200 yards up the road. We gelled very well with Anglicans there. Mind, both the Canon and her husband had been Methodists in their early life.

Anglican priests are often trained in Methodist theological colleges and Methodist Ministers are often trained in Anglican colleges. Both churches accept the training of the other.

It has been said that the Methodist Church has taken all the best bits of the Church of England. The annual Covenant Service in January, for example, was something that John Wesley discovered was introduced by Rev Alleyn in 17th century and ditched by the Anglican Church a century or so later.

There ya are Cyn,,,,,,we have one common ground,,,

mind I dont know about all ten,,,,maybe 6/10 aint bad,,,,, ;-) :-D :-D :-D.

I must admit I did find it somewhat presumptuous and inaccurate.

Different denominations can often be a gulf apart.

Hang on a mo John........

I am not at all sure we would settle into each other's churches. Whilst the theology is the same, I think you would feel restricted by the 'due rites and ceremonies' which I enjoy, and I would not be happy in your 'free for all' atmosphere.

I have experienced free church worship but much prefer the Anglican way of worship.

Methodism goes very much with the Service of the Word whereas, Anglicanism is much more sacramental.


As for the lectionary which each church uses.....they may be similar but not the same.


Also, I am not an office holder in any way shape or form - just a willing servant.


Joy - that link doesn't work for me but I found the event any way........looks like a great idea...... :-D


Kay......... :-D All I can say is, that some of us don't actually find commitment or ritual a burden.....more of a blessing really. Hopefully, we all also show kindness, take our morals from the example of the Ten Commandments and live for the good of others........ :-D

well my church is in the league of none belivers,

we are not burdened by commitment,not burdened by a troubled mind for something we did or didnt do,we are free from a timetable,,,,,and are free from having to to peform any ritual ....... :-D :-D :-D :-D.

;-),

but we are free to show humanity,kindness,have good thoughts,be moral and live for our own good. ;-)

do you wanna join John........ :-D :-D :-D :-D.