General Chat

Best wishes to Benedict, "emeritus pope" in his retirement.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21624149
Pope Benedict XVI has officially resigned, saying that he now "will simply be a pilgrim" starting his last journey on earth.

The pontiff, aged 85, was earlier flown by helicopter from the Vatican to his retreat at Castel Gandolfo, near Rome.

The college of cardinals, headed by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, is now in charge of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics until a new pope is elected.

Benedict vowed "unconditional obedience and reverence" to his successor.

Last Sunday afternoon, the old Wesleyan preacher in my chapel said something very interesting. He mentioned the year 1738 - and must have been later in that year after both John and Chales Wesley had their conversion experiences. Charles on 21st May (Whitsunday in an Anglican church service in City of Westminster - source needed) and John four days later in a midweek "German" Bible study in Aldersgate St, City of London led by Moravians.

Rev Charles Wesley was sitting in a tavern in the City of London with his very good friend and the finest 18th century preacher Rev George Whitfield. Crowds of people went past the window of the tavern and they were all going to hear Whitfield preach at a little publicised meeting round corner.

Charles could see that his friend George was becoming more and more nervous and agitated. "George. You are a natural preacher. The greatest in England. Why are you so worried about these crowds?. God will speak through you. Do not worry, my dear friend?"

"My dear Charles, I am concerned because the crowd wil be so large. Because if more than 5 people assemble to hear me, it will be disbanded by the police and there may be violence.

Apparently, 5,000 heard him, no police were called and it all went off swimmingly.

Wend :-D :-D

I have a lot of fun. I remember the last time very well. I went to a Labour Party jamboree and Mr Gaitskill came and had a word with me. How we laughed :-D ;-)

Wend.....I think you'll find John DOES have a good time - just not in the same way as you :-)


Dermot....it's a really unfortunate state of affairs for all Catholics in so many ways. I feel for all my Catholic friends as they must be feeling so rudderless and afloat in a vast ocean.

A good leader is essential for any organisation. Let's hope and pray that, when the vote is taken, the Cardinals choose the right man for the position. :-)

So, we'll have no say as to who might be the next Pope!

We Catholics in the UK are leaderless because it is not easy being God in human disguise. Man-made rules often determine the success or failure of a religion.

We are all swimming in the same swamp & the devil is loose again.

Fgs - have a bit of fun too John. We all feel ble@@y miserable sometimes, but hopefully we are strong and overcome it :-| :-(

:-)

What a thoughtful post, Sylvia/Cynthia :-D

I had a little thought today following on from the "I'll show you how to have a good time" remark. What is my favourite drink and what do I like eating most.

And, of course, it is communion bread and wine. Before I was a Christian I liked smoked salmon and Newcastle Brown. And a ciggy. :-D :-D Still like smoked salmon, but have not drunk Newcy Brown or smoked since 1984, just over a year after my conversion experience. And would hate them now.

When I was last in India 3 years ago, one of the waiters found out I was a Christian and invited me to his church. You cannot really say "is it Catholic of Protestant?" So we travelled out of Kovalam about 5 miles on a phwt-phwt ( a motorised cycle sort of thing) and it was a magnificent Catholic Church. No seats so we sat cross-legged on the floor. About 800 in congregfation and I was the only white face. Went up and took the wafer and the wine (yes, I know I shouldn't but it felt right).

My only problem was I was facing a life-size statue of Jesus on the Cross, pain of his face and blood streaming down. It seemed such a horrible and negative image. In my church the Cross is always empty, and we celebrate that - as Jesus defeated the enemy of death - so can we one day rise from death with him. :-) :-)

lolol - Sorry Cynthia - profuse apologies.
I blame the fact that I feel dreadful and have a temperature

Sylvia? Sylvia? Who is Sylvia? .....I ask myself.... :-D ;-)

Thank you for that Sylvia - most eloquent and succinct.

I think transubstantiation is the one I always have a problem with.

John - the Prim term is just a personal think with me. Incidentally, I was certainly not summarising - merely pointing out that Spurgeon was a great person as far as homlessness and childless persons were concerned.

I think people are often very selective in a debate such as this because it can be so personal.

Good job you're around to answer Methodist questions John.........I'm not really au fait with them. We have a thriving Methodist church not far away and I think we may have a couple of Primitive Methodist churches around here but I'm not sure.


Anyway, good morning Errol - it is now coffee time and I have the chance to natter for a little while. Please, make yourself comfortable and we'll begin :-)


Your question was....".how do I reconciliate with catholic beliefs?"


Hope you aren't expecting an in depth theological discussion on the subject of the schisms 'twixt the Roman church and Anglicanism, ' cos you won't get it from me ;-)

I can only speak from personal experience.

I know that two of the main stumbling blocks are a) Transubstantiation b) the infallibility of the Papal Office.


Personally, neither of the above cause me any great angst whereas, for others, they are an anathema.


Transubstantiation is not a particular hurdle as far as I am concerned. The most important thing to me is that I receive the Sacrament.


In a way, I can see the reasoning behind the thinking of papal infallibility in that it is not the Pope who is infallible per se, it applies to his teaching of faith and morals within the church. I may not agree with it, but I can live with it.


Worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary/The Immaculate Conception/The Virgin Birth are often cited as stumbling blocks too.


Again, I have no problem with people wishing to revere the Mother of Christ as she does, indeed, warrant respect at the very least. I am not altogether sure where the Catholic church get the fact of her Immaculate Conception from or how they know she was free from original sin, but she was an amazing woman.


The Virgin Birth has been debated by theologians for yonks......long before David Jenkins hit the headlines all those years ago. Virgin Birth vs normal birth - whatever the truth - to me, Jesus is still Jesus. If that makes sense.


My main sadness of the division is the fact that we are not allowed to receive the Sacrament in an RC church.... :(


We have 'rubbed shoulders' with several RC priests during our time and, about 6 years before we retired, we lived not far from one who became a close friend. He continues to visit us in retirement and we often discuss church matters - from his side and from ours. We never fall out, can talk about absolutely anything, and our friendship thrives. We refer to him as 'our brother in Christ'. Such is the mutual respect for each other that my husband who is a staunch Anglican, has asked for this friend to speak at his funeral. I'll sort that out when the time comes
:-D


In a way, I have more difficulties with my original upbringing - the Salvation Army who do not include the use of Sacraments in their worship. No baptism no Communion.


Don't know if I have answered adequately but it's the best I can do at the moment.
:-D

Prims is what they called themselves, Errol :-D :-D Just shorthand for Primitive Methodists. An afectionate term, and absolutely NOT derogatory in any way whatsoever.

Did you know that Methodists was a term of abuse that John Wesley ignored when it was thrown at him? More than that, he turned it round by forming a society of "People Called Methodists"

You will have to explain what you mean by "selective"

And your summary of the achievements of the great 19th century "Prince of Preachers" - well :-0 :-0 If you were writing an obituary for Gandhi, would it be "short, thin, liked peace". :-) Spurgeon's leadership of Baptists and his good works followed on naturally from his being a Christian, knowing God in a very personal way and God granting him gifts of leadesrhip and the greatest preaching gifts of his age. :-)

I find the term prim quite offensive and derogatory
Yes Spurgeon was a great person as far as homlessness and childless persons were concerned but I still think you are being very selective.
please alter your term "prim" - it is very distasteful

Errol. Like all things, the cup can be half empty or half full.

Methodism is still a very strong religion throughout the world. Amazingly influential and touching the lives of millions. Lot stronger that the whole church in 60AD when there were little pockets of believers here and there - with leaders like Paul and John being pursued and imprisoned, tortured, put to death.

Prims were fantastic. No real education, so no notes. Just shouted at people. The greatest preacher of 19th Century (Baptist Charles H Spurgeon) was converted at the age of just 15 in a Prim chapel in Colchester. Very snowy, couldn't get up the hill to his own chapel so sat in little Prim chapel at foot of hill. The sermon was delivered by a steward who had the text "Look unto me, and be ye saved". He could not really expound the text much and kept repeating it.. And then he turned to Spurgeon and said something like "Young man, you look miserable. Just obey this text. Look to Jesus. In all things, look to Jesus.

They were the words Spurgeon needed to set him off on his fantastically successfukl ministry. :-) :-)

Primitive Methodism was probably quite strict and certainly when the sermon was given at Mow Cop it appealed to many people who could not understand the rantings of more conformist sects
Sadly, the methodist church has taken a few backward steps in recent years

Errol. Methodism until 1790 was purely a society within the Anglican Church. The Wesleys were Anglican priests all their long lives. John felt it was his job to preach outside churches to the masses who often could not afford pew rent. Charles was just a brilliant hymnwriter.

By 1820, Methodism had split into 3 main strands:
1. Original Wesleyans, who were fairly well to do and respectable.
2. Primitives who were a working class movement mainly, tried to go back to the ideals of John Wesley. They were in industrial towns often and preachers were called ranters. Yes, it was started on Mow Cop in 1807.
3. Kirkhamites or New Connexion. They again tried to be true to Wesley and were quite strong in his old stomping grounds of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire.

All 3 main strands came back together in about 1930. All Bible based. As far as I know, prayer books and set prayers are not hugely popular in non-conformist churches. I have never read a prayer in my life - all mine are from the heart (which can be scary when sometimes over 200 people are listening to you)

I think the anglicans and baptists probably have it correct then - a prayer book and bible should come before any hymn book.
Methodism in some ways I suppose is still enshrined in Wesley and the industrial revolution - just look at Mow Cop and primitive mothodism

Joeva. How sad. Hope Mothering Sunday is ok for them.

Well, I am pretty exhausted :-D :-D But in right way.

First service today was in a large English Methodist chapel 20 miles away. I opened with a Welsh hymn (Calon Lan - Pure and Happy Heart) and printed off 50 copies of words and it was nowhere near enough. Chose 2 Fanny Crosby hymns as I absolutely love her work. And finsished with Williams Pantycelyn's "Bread of Heaven". Singing and organ playing were fantastic. Sermon went really exceptionally well and as I took 1 Corinthians 7 verses 8-9 - "stay single, but if you burn with lust, get married" it was not the easiest text.

Second one was in my own chapel. I could sit quietly at the back and there was a visiting preacher who came from Cardiff. To us valleys folk, Cardiff can seem like a distant and exotic metropolis. He concentrated on the theology of hymns written by Charles Wesley. Lot of what he said was new to us - and about 30 in attendance. One memorable sentence was that Anglicans carry a prayer book to church, Baptists a Bible and Methodists a hymn book :-D :-D

Third one was a Welsh language service in a large Independent chapel 15 miles away. It is not well attended and only 8 were there (usually about 20 but illness, weather etc). Hymns chosen by Deacon and not very familiar ones, but knew tunes well. And one of congregation did the readings in Welsh. I did sermon (Matt 5 verse 5 - blessed are the meek) in a mixture of Welsh and English and the service went quite well in the circumstances.

So a very special day with a lot of interest and variety :-D :-D

Oh Joeva....that is so sad. I know it can be a difficult day for so many people and for all kinds of reasons. I do so hope and pray that you will all get through the day without too much anguish. <3


I have led many Mothering Sunday services and will be doing so again this year. Each time, whilst I am aware of those for whom this day is a painful reminder of happier times, I also think of those who have never experienced a mother's love and those who are sad because they have been unable to have children.


A very emotive day indeed but one I hope, that gives us an opportunity to be grateful for all our blessings - past, present and future. <3

Mothering Sunday .............. last year was the first year my granddaughters had to survive this day without their mother. As their maternal grandmother I too felt the pain of their loss as well as my own on the death of my daughter.
My cousin lost her mother in her late teens and has told me that only after many years when she was a mother herself could she really enjoy the day.
My only wish is that my three granddaughters will be able to get through the day peacefully.

Jo