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Was Clara living with her Grandmother in 1861?- Perhaps daughter, Maria was born outside marriage?:

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Hathern, Loughborough, Leicestershire, England

John Howe Male 25 1816 Leicestershire, England
Maria Howe Female 25 1816 Leicestershire, England
Maria Howe Female 9 1832 - <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Henry Howe Male 6 1835 -
Emma Howe Female 4 1837 Leicestershire, England
George Howe Male 2 1839 Leicestershire, England
Jane Howe Female 0 1841 Leicestershire, England

Darn these awkward people!

John married after Maria's birth (so Maria, Clara's Mum, would be a Lovett).

John is listed with Maria on the census- but she is actually Rebecca!!

First name(s) John
Last name Howe
Marriage year 1834
Marriage date 24 Nov 1834
Marriage place Nottingham
Church St Mary
Denomination Anglican
Spouse's first name(s) Rebecca
Spouse's last name Lovett
County Nottinghamshire
Country England
-------------------------------------------

In 1871- she reverts to Rebecca:

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Mount Street, Basford, Nottinghamshire, England

John Howe Head - Male 59 1812 - Leicestershire, England
Rebecca Howe Wife - Female 59 1812 - Leicestershire, England
Arthur Howe Son - Male 19 1852 - Leicestershire, England
Agnes Howe Daughter - Female 17 1854 - Leicestershire, England
Jesse Howe Son - Male 16 1855 - Leicestershire, England
Henry A Sands Visitor - Male 5 1866 - Nottinghamshire, England

So- just to make it clearer

John Howe married Rebecca Lovett in 1834. Rebecca was also known as Maria. However, it appears that Rebecca/ Maria already had a daughter Maria Lovett, born c1831.(possibly after a relationship with John Sketchly)

Maria (c1831) married Thomas Gretton in 1852. They had daughter (also in 1852), Clara Lovett Gretton.

Sadly, Maria died in 1856 and Thomas died in 1857.

It appears that Clara then stayed with her Grandmother, Rebecca/ Maria Howe (nee Lovett). She was listed as her Daughter, but looking at the birth indexes I think it more likely to be her grandaughter.

Thanks everyone all of this information sounds interesting & more likely to be Thomas Gretton & Maria Lovett as Clara's parents. I have sent for her marriage certificate which will give me her fathers name & occupation, unfortunately it takes 2 weeks to arrive in Australia.
Will reveal all after then
Ellen

I think we've now identified the correct family- especially as Clara named her first daughter Maria.

Woop, woop Austin.

I love it when it all comes together.

Great team work!!

Prickles. x

:-D

It was great teamwork PH!

Ellen, please let us know the details of the marriage certificate when it arrives. Fingers crossed it matches the details we've all found. If there's anything you're not sure of- just ask.

I have searched for the Gretton's on the 1841 census on Ancestry and FMP.....but i don't seem to be having any luck.

The fact that my eyes have crossed over doesn't help!

:-S

A VERY long shot here for the 1841:

Name: Thos Gratton
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Gender: Male
Civil Parish: Loughborough
Hundred: West Goscote
County/Island: Leicestershire
Country: England
Street address: Union Workhouse !!
Registration district: Loughborough
Sub-registration district: Loughborough
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 595
Book: 11
Page Number: 1

Maybe the parents had died?

Also in the Workhouse with him is Sarah Gratton aged 10. BUT, it says both not born in County ??

Dea x

Well Done folks...

Chris :)

Burial Register summary

Howe Rebecca Maria
Burial date 20 November 1879
Authority Nottingham City Council
Location Basford Cemetery, Nottingham (Nottinghamshire)

https://www.deceasedonline.com/


(below has 1841 & 1851 Hathern)

http://hathernhistory.co.uk/images/hathern/census/1841_census_PDF.pdf

http://hathernhistory.co.uk/images/hathern/census/1851_census_PDF.pdf

I'm not sure how they transcribed that 1841 census- some of the pages for Hathern are virtually blank they're that faded.

I couldn't see anything more in 1841 than you found Dea.

Just backtracking slightly- Ellen said in the opening post that Clara had son, Arthur Winterbotham, born 1866. I questioned this as Clara was born in 1852 and didn't marry until 1870. Plus I don't see a birth for him.

In 1871 Clara and James are living alone, and Arthur is here with Grandparents (In 1881 Arthur is listed as the son of James & Clara):

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Cobden Street, Loughborough, Leicestershire, England

John Winterbotham Head - Male 52 1819 - Leicestershire, England
Ann Winterbotham Wife - Female 58 1813 - Derbyshire, England
Charlotte Winterbotham Daughter - Female 23 1848 - Leicestershire, England
Mary Winterbotham Daughter - Female 21 1850 - Leicestershire, England
Elizabeth Winterbotham Daughter - Female 14 1857 - Leicestershire, England
Minnie Winterbotham Daughter - Female 6 1865 - Leicestershire, England
Arthur Winterbotham Grandson - Male 5 1866 - Nottinghamshire,
--------------------------------------

This creates more confusion as some of the children of John and Ann have mother's maiden name Middleton- but I don't see a birth for James (that married Clara Gretton). However, I have found James with a Middleton family in 1851:

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Pinfold Gate, Loughborough, Leicestershire, England

William Middleton Head Married Male 55 1796 Farmers Labourer Packington, Derbyshire
Elizabeth Middleton Wife Married Female 55 1796 - Ashover, Derbyshire,
Henry Middleton Son - Male 14 1837 Scholar Loughborough, Leicestershire
James Winterbottam Visitor - Male 10 1841 Scholar Loughborough, Leicestershire,
--------------------------------------------------

I know Ellen didn't ask for the information but I was curious and confused!

Who are Arthur's parents? If James is his father- was James married before?

Who are James' parents?

And where are their births?

I have to go out- but wanted to put this up. I'll check it out later.

What if James Winterbotham was previously married under the name Middleton:

Marriage:
name(s) James Middleton (Framework Knitter)
Age 24
Birth year 1841
Residence Cherry Orchard, Loughborough
Father's name(s) John Middleton (Joiner)
Marriage year 1865
Marriage date 12 Mar 1865
Spouse's name(s) Jane Brewin
Spouse's age 19
Spouse's residence Loughborough
Spouse's father's name(s) William Brewin
Denomination Anglican
Place Loughborough, Emmanuel
County Leicestershire
-------------------------------------------------------

(Is this Arthur Winterbotham??)- EDIT: It appears it is!
MIDDLETON, ARTHUR mmn: BREWIN
GRO Reference: 1865 S Quarter in BASFORD Volume 07B Page 122

MIDDLETON, JOHN mmn: BREWIN
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in BASFORD Volume 07B Page 134
-----------------------------------------------

And possible death for Jane:
name(s) JANE MIDDLETON
Gender Female
Birth year 1845
Age 23
Death quarter 2
Death year 1868
District Basford
County Nottinghamshire
Volume 7B Page 74

Just back- had another look.

I believe James Winterbotham was born James Middleton- the illegitimate child of Ann Middleton. Shortly after James was born Ann married John Winterbotham.

James Middleton/ Winterbotham married Jane Brewin in 1865. He lists his father as John Middleton, occ Joiner. His step dad, John Winterbotham was listed as a joiner on the 1871.

James and Jane had two sons, Arthur (b1865) and John (b1868). Jane died in 1968.

James then reverts to using Winterbotham for his surname- as does his son Arthur. James then marries Clara Gretton in 1870.

I cannot see what happened to son John. (Will try and search for him later)

and just to confirm- here is Ann Middleton with son, James, and husband to be John Winterbotham in 1841.

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Church Gate, Loughborough, Leicestershire, England

William Partridge Male 60 1781 -
Martha Partridge Female 60 1781 Leicestershire, England
John Winterbottom Male 20 1821 Leicestershire, England
Ann Middleton Female 20 1821 Leicestershire, England
James Middleton Male 4 months 1841 Leicestershire, England

By 1891 Clara and James had separated :

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Shipstone Street, Radford, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England

Clara Winterbottom Head Married Female 38 1853 Grocer Hathern, Leicestershire,
Louis Winterbottom Son Single Male 16 1875 Dyers Labourer New Basford, Nottinghamshire,
George Winterbottom Son Single Male 13 1878 - New Basford, Nottinghamshire,
Clara E Winterbottom Daughter - Female 1 1890 - Nottinghamshire,
---------------------------------------

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Great Alfred Street, St Mary, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England

George Clarke Head Married Male 58 1833 Shoe Maker Nottingham
Elizth Clarke Wife Married Female 42 1849 - Uppingham
Florence M Clarke Daughter - Female 15 1876 Lace Mender Nottingham
Elizth E Clarke Daughter - Female 13 1878 Errand Girl Nottingham
Jas Winterbottam Boarder Married Male 48 1843 Framework Knitter Nottingham
Arther Winterbottam Boarder Single Male 24 1867 Framework Knitter Nottingham
Elizth Naden Lodger Widow Female 60 1831 Hosiery Finisher Nottingham
------------------------------------------

So Clara's youngest child was not James' daughter. In your opening post you said her father was Spilby- but looking at her birth reg I think her father's surname was Spyby (or Spibey- several spellings).

WINTERBOTHAM, CLARA EMMA SPYBY mmn:GRETTON
GRO Reference: 1889 D Quarter in NOTTINGHAM Volume 07B Page 291

When Clara Emma marries she lists her father as Harry Spiby/Spilby Winterbotham, bookeeper.

Possibly this man? (I don't see him in 1891)

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
24, Independent Street, Radford, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England

Henry W Spiby Head Married Male 27 1854 Brewers Clerk Radford, Nottinghamshire
Jane Spiby Wife Married Female 37 1844 - Scotland
Martha Baker Daughter In Law Married Female 17 1864 Colliers Wife Nottingham, Nottinghamshire,
William Spiby Son Single Male 1 1880 - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire
Albert Spiby Son Single Male 6 1875 Scholar Nottingham, Nottinghamshire,
------------------------------------------------------------

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
14, North Sherwood Street Street Albans Terrace, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire,

Emma Wise Head Widow Female 65 1836 - Nottinghamshire, England
Harry Wise Son Single Male 47 1854 Commercial Clerk Nottinghamshire,
Harry Spibey Boarder Single Male 46 1855 Barman Nottinghamshire,
Ann Wise Daughter Single Female 44 1857 - Nottinghamshire,
Charles Wise Son Single Male 43 1858 Cordwainer Nottinghamshire,
Betsy Wise Daughter Single Female 38 1863 Lace Mender Nottinghamshire,
Albert Wise Son Single Male 31 1870 Plumber Nottinghamshire
Florence Wise Grand Daughter - Female 8 1893 - Nottinghamshire,
Hilda Wise Grand Daughter - Female 7 1894 - Nottinghamshire,

Austin is on a roll!!

:-D

Wow Austin you had certainly given me some new news ,yes Arthur was born 1866 I assumed he was born to James & Clara before they married.

Clara Emma was born to a Harry ( Henry ) Spilby it states on her marriage certificate Harry Spilby Winterbotham as her father to Claude Harcourt Clements.

A 2nd cousin & I are researching together this Winterbotham family, her father ( Clara's son ) told her Clara Emma was deeply ashamed her whole life that she was illegitimate
Thank you heaps
Ellen

(tries to keep up, lol)

Below might relate in...

Chris :)

Baptism
County Nottinghamshire
Place Radford
Church name Christ Church
Register type Unspecified
Baptism date 25 Sep 1853
Person forename Henry William
Person sex M
Person abode New Radford
Father forename William
Father surname SPIBY
Father occupation Engineer
Mother forename Sarah Emma


Baptism
County Nottinghamshire
Place Radford
Church name Christ Church
Register type Unspecified
Baptism date 28 Mar 1875
Person forename Albert William
Person sex M
Person abode 32 Denman St
Father forename Henry William
Father surname SPIBEY
Father occupation Greengrocer
Mother forename Jane

https://www.freereg.org.uk/


SPIBY, ALBERT WILLIAM (JOHNSON)
GRO Reference: 1874 D Quarter in RADFORD Volume 07B Page 218


Marriages Jun 1871 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------
Johnson Jane Radford 7b 334
SPIBEY Henry William Radford 7b 334


Deaths Dec 1914 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
Spiby Henry W 61 Nottingham 7b 432


Marriages Sep 1850 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Roberts Sarah Emma Radford 15 888
Spibey William Radford 15 888

PH- I couldn't rest, Arthur was niggling me!

Now- it can't get much clearer than this! Arthur on the 1939 register- under Middleton & Winterbotham:

Middleton (Winterbottom) Household 3 Ashby Road , Hinckley U.D., Leicestershire, England

Arthur Middleton (Winterbottom) 11 Aug 1865 Male Barber Married

Well done !!

:-)