Find Ancestors

I have spent many fruitless hours trying to locate an 1891 England Census record for a Derham family, usually found at Lee in the Lewisham district of Kent. They are one of several Derham families in the area. It seems a little problem, but it holds the key as to whether one of the blockages in this tree can be removed.

In the 1881 Census at 7 Lenham Rd Lee, Kent were parents Thomas 39 years b Lee, Dinah 37 yrs b. Exeter and children Edith (Edith Mary Susan) 8, Alice (Alice Maria) 6, Emma 4 (deceased before 1891), Mary (Mary Beatrice) 3, and Ellen (Ellen Ethel) who was not yet 1 year.
Additionally in the 1891 census I would expect to find Gertrude Margaret b. 1884 and Elsie Marion b. 1886.

The key for me is to establish whether Gertrude Margaret b. 1884 is part of this family. From all the anecdotal family evidence it seems probable. I’ve sent for her birth cert, but, with the Xmas mail glut it has already been longer than the 3 weeks it usually takes for such matters to find the way to Australia.

Knowing what a whiz with the recordssome of the helpful people on this site are I wonder if someone can help.

Thanks in advance
Keith

This looks like them in 1901 but not all of them and no Gertrude?

1901 England Census
about Ethel Derham
Name: Ethel Derham
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1879
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Thomas Derham
Gender: Female
Where born: London, England

Civil Parish: Lee
Ecclesiastical parish: St Margaret
County/Island: London
Country: England


Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Lee
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 215
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Derham 59
Alice Derham 26
Ethel Derham 22
Elsie Derham 14

1881 (Ex Ancestry) for reference:

Name: Thomas Durham
Age: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1842
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Dinah Durham
Gender: Male
Where born: Lee, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Lee
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 7 Lenham Rd
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Carman
Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Lee
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Durham 39
Dinah Durham 37 born Coater, Devon
Edith Durham 8 born Eltham, Kent
Alice Durham 6 born Eltham, Kent
Emma Durham 4 born Eltham, Kent
Mary Durham 3 born Lee, Kent
Ellen Durham born Lee, Kent
Thomas Deave 71
Florence Martin 4

Am I right in thinking there were some 1891 censuses that were water damaged for the London/Kent area?

1901 kensington Town District 21 > 13 Gertrude Dereham 16 born lee Kent a servant.

Maryb

How do you know Emma died before 1891?

So mom was still around for the 91 census


Deaths Jun 1898 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Derham Dinah 54 Lewisham 1d 596

1911 Elsie Dereham born 1886 St margarets Lee Kent a palour maid in Tonbridge wells

Maryb

Is this your girl?



Births Jun 1884 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Derham Gertrude Margaret Lewisham 1d 1110

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In answer to MaryB:

Deaths Sep 1882
Derham Emma Louisa 6 Lewisham 1d 576

Gertrude in 1901:

CAMPBELL, Rachel Head Single F 35 1866 Living On Own Means
Southampton
Hampshire
CAMPBELL, Jane Alice Sister Single F 34 1867 Living On Own Means
Southampton
Hampshire
NEAL, Georgeina Servant Single F 19 1882 Parlourmaid
Baconsthorpe
Norfolk
DEREHAM, Gertrude Servant Single F 16 1885 Cook
Lee S E
London
DICKEN, Kate Servant Single F 16 1885 Housemaid
Odiham
Hampshire

RG number:
RG13 Piece:
22 Folio:
35 Page:
13

Registration District:
Kensington Sub District:
Kensington Town Enumeration District:
21 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Barnabas

Civil Parish:
Kensington Municipal Borough:
Address:
148, Holland Road, Kensington County:
London


Gertrude in 1911:

TYLER, Alfred Head Married M 64 1847 Builders Follman Shetford Norfolk
TYLER, Charlotte Wife F 55 1856 Uxbridge
TYLER, Gladys Daughter Single F 19 1892 Music Teacher Battersea
BURGGER, Kresenzer Boarder Widow F 63 1848 Semstress Kingston on Thames
RASTEFF, Florence Boarder Single F 31 1880 Shop Assistant In Dairy Isle of Dogs
ALLXANDER, Kathleen Boarder Single F 25 1886 Shop Assistant In Dairy Clapham
DERHAM, Gertrude Boarder F 26 1885 Shop Assistant In Drapers Blackheath

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
2239 Reference:
RG14PN2239 RG78PN76 RD26 SD3 ED19 SN169

Registration District:
Wandsworth Sub District:
South West Battersea Enumeration District:
19 Parish:
Battersea

Address:
1 Kelmscott Road Battersea S W County:
London

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about Gertrude M Derham
Name: Gertrude M Derham
Year of Registration: 1912
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Spouse's Surname: George T Coulstock
District: Malling
County: Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 1037

So the other children:

Marriages Dec 1892
Derham Edith Mary S Lewisham 1d 1734
THORPE Cyril Oliver K Lewisham 1d 1734

1901:

THORPE, Cyril Head Married M 32 1869 Bootmaker
Bermondsey
London
THORPE, Edith Wife Married F 28 1873
Lee
THORPE, Cyril Son M 7 1894 Scholar
Chislehurst
Kent
THORPE, Alec Son M 5 1896 Scholar
Chislehurst
Kent
THORPE, Sidney Son M 2 1899
Chislehurst
Kent

RG number:
RG13 Piece:
755 Folio:
133 Page:
14

Registration District:
Tonbridge Sub District:
Tunbridge Wells Enumeration District:
29 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Matthews Southborough

Civil Parish:
Southborough Municipal Borough:
Address:
21, Nursery Road, Southborough County:
Kent

1911:

KIRKMAN THORPE, Cyril Head Married M 42 1869 Boot Repairer Not Certain
KIRKMAN THORPE, Edith Wife Married
18 years M 38 1873 Lee Kent
KIRKMAN THORPE, Alice Son Single M 15 1896 Basket Maker's Apprentice Chislehurst Kent (should be Alec)
KIRKMAN THORPE, Sidney Son M 12 1899 School Chislehurst Kent
KIRKMAN THORPE, Edith Daughter F 6 1905 School Southborough Kent

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
4056 Reference:
RG14PN4056 RG78PN156 RD50 SD1 ED17 SN344

Registration District:
Tonbridge Sub District:
Tunbridge Wells Enumeration District:
17 Parish:
Tunbridge Wells

Address:
71 Stanley Road Tunbridge Wells Kent County:
Kent

1 Child had died of this marriage - so probably little Cyril.

Deaths Sep 1929
THORPE Edith M S 56 Tonbridge 2a 851

And her widowed husband married her sister....

Marriages Dec 1930
Derham Elsie M Thorpe Deptford 1d 1685
Thorpe Cyril K Derham Deptford 1d 1685


1901:

MCMULLEN, Thomas Head Married M 51 1850 Secretary
Abbey Holme
Cumberland
MCMULLEN, Thomas Stanly Son Single M 17 1884 Apprentice Stationer ?
London
CHAUDET, Florence A Step Daughter Single F 26 1875 No Occupation
London
>>>DERHAM, Beatrice M Servant Single F 23 1878 General Servant Domestic
Lee

RG number:
RG13 Piece:
546 Folio:
124 Page:
30

Registration District:
Lewisham Sub District:
Lee Enumeration District:
11 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Holy Trinity

Civil Parish:
Lee Municipal Borough:
Address:
110, High Road, Lee County:
London

Marriages Sep 1905
DERHAM Beatrice Mary Lewisham 1d 2114
TRIBE William Lewisham 1d 2114

1911:

TRIBE, William Head Married M 37 1874 Storekeeper Motor Garage Hampshire Castmew
TRIBE, Beatrice Mary Wife Married
6 years F 33 1878 London Lewisham
TRIBE, Florence Ethel Amy Daughter F 5 1906 School London Deptford
DERHAM, Thomas Father In Law Widower M 69 1842 Gardener Domestic Kent Lee

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
2621 Reference:
RG14PN2621 RG78PN88 RD28 SD1 ED27 SN201

Registration District:
Greenwich Sub District:
Deptford North Enumeration District:
27 Parish:
St Paul Deptford

Address:
4 Leylang Road New Cross S E County:
London

Marriages Sep 1905
DERHAM Alice Maria Lewisham 1d 2111
Holland Beatrice Ellen Lewisham 1d 2111
IVES William Edward Lewisham 1d 2111
TAYLOR John William Lewisham 1d 2111

Unsure which of those she married!


1911:

PHILLIPS, John Frederick Lorth Head Married M 56 1855 Landlord Private Means Pembroke Haverfordwest
PHILLIPS, Maude Lorth Wife Married
15 years F 49 1862 London
OWEN, Grace C M Visitor Widow F 56 1855 London
>>>DERHAM, Ethel Ellen Servant Single F 30 1881 Domestic Maid Lee Nr London
WARRINGTON, Sarah Ann Servant Single F 33 1878 Domestic Housemaid Stafford Oakamoor VIEW
PEATA, Elisabeth Servant Single F 29 1882 Domestic Laundress Cheshire Audlem
JONES, Elisabeth Servant Single F 21 1890 Domestic Housemaid Brecon Egwbeysoenduw
JONES, Edith Servant Single F 19 1892 Domestic Housemaid Denbigh Glyn
JENKINS, Florence Ann Servant Single F 19 1892 Domestic Laundress Pembroke Lawrenny
WEBBERLEY, Hannah M B Servant Single F 24 1887 Domestic Kitchenmaid Derby Tekeston
EDWARDS, Lilian Chary Servant Single F 16 1895 Domestic Scullerymaid Pembroke Pembroke
REES, Edth Amelia Visitor Single F 38 1873 Domestic Maid Donegal Greencastle Resident
WEBB, Alice M Visitor Single F 34 1877 Domestic Nurse Highgate London
JAMES, Dorcas Visitor Single F 19 1892 Domestic Nurserymaid Glamorgan Dinaspowis
MANSELL, Thomas Servant Single M 21 1890 Domestic Footman Stafford West Bromwich
HATCHEN, George Servant Single M 22 1889 Domestic Footman Dorset Stalbridge
HUMPHRIES, Leonard Visitor Single M 24 1887 Mechanic Motor Works Warwick Studley
BUCKSTON, Robin Nephew M 2 1909 London
BUCKSTON, George Bewsford Nephew M 0 (10 MONTHS) 1911 Flint Rhyl

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
33134 Reference:
RG14PN33134 RG78PN1899 RD601 SD1 ED9 SN30

Registration District:
Pembroke Sub District:
Tenby Enumeration District:
9 Parish:
Lawrenny

Address:
Lawrenny Park Begelly S O County:
Pembrokeshire

Marriages Dec 1914
DERHAM Ethel E Symes Tonbridge 2a 1889
Symes Albert H Derham Tonbridge 2a 1889


No sign of the family at all in 1891 and as that includes Gertrude I would imagine she was their daughter - but you would have to get the birth certificate to be sure.

Thanks all
You've found in a very short time what took me ages. Sorry I've been off line, but had an SOS from one of the kids. All now sorted on that front..

You can see how critical the 1891 census is. It is the only one she is likely to be shown with her parents as she is not born for the 1881 event and is working away from home in 1901.

What a bummer if the record no longer exists. Does anyone think it likely that it will turn up?

Again many thanks

Keith

Well other than doing a trawl of all the images for Lee in 1891 - I dont know.
They could have been all horridly mistranscribed or perhaps just weren't at home that night and got missed?

Thanks Alex
I'll just have to hope that the Birth Cert arrives soon. Otherwise I just might have to trawl through the lot.
Keith

Well I've gone through District 7 and District 8 of Lee so far... not sure I can face looking through the others lol! But the street the family were on in 1901 comes under District 8 in 1891 and there are a lot of uninhabited houses on that street in 1891. Possible they were away from home.

I have been checking Districts in Lee in 1891,I find it strange there is no District 10.
It goes from 9 to 11

I wonder if thats were they were as they seem to stay in that area.
1871 D 7
1881 d13
1901 D7

Maryb

This is because they were water damaged Im sure.

Lindsey where ever she is knows more about this than me

Could be worth contacting the Lewisham Local Studies Library to ask if they know if any area of Lee is missing from the 1891 census:

http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/LeisureAndCulture/LocalHistoryAndHeritage/WhatWeHold/ArchivesMaterial/ArchivalDocumentsAndManuscripts.htm

This is the link to what is reported as missing on the 1891 census:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=missing&txtfirstdate=1891&txtlastdate=1891&txtrestriction=RG12&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=0&image1.y=0&image1=GO

Lee is not mentioned.

Thanks so much everyone,

You not only found all I had managed to discover but much more and you taught me so much in the process, especially about what I don't know about how to conduct research.

The birth cert arrived today and yes, she is the daughter of Thomas Derham and Dinah Derham formerly Dawe. Now I have to work on her grand parents and great grand parents. However I have her located at last, in a family and thanks to your efforts, a family I know a lot more about.

Seasons greetings

Keith

Glad we could have been of help Keith!

Have a great Christmas.