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Looking for information on John Charles Firmin born in Chatham UK birthdate Feb 5, 1914.

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Have you done any research?

Please!

Is this him? Parent's marriage 8 Nov 1902 in East Dereham.


UK, British Army World War I Pension Records 1914-1920
Name: John Charles Firman
Birth Date: 5 Feb 1915
Birth Place: Chatham
Relationship to Soldier: Child
Form Title: Descriptive Report on Enlistment
Number of Images: 23
Other Records:
Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
John Charles Firman Self (Head)
Margaret Bernton Spouse
John Charles Firman Child


EDIT John Charles snr died on 20 Oct 1923 in Guardians ? Institution, Uttoxeter Rd, Derby of malaria and bronchitis.
Space for the next of kin details have been scored through and the informant was H Hitchings?, Master of Derby Union.

On the 10 Nov 1915, Margaret writes to the Officer of Records that she's enclosed ' a statutary declaration as to her child's birth' which she trusts 'will be satifactory under the circumstances.'
Her address was 14 Pleasant Row, King's Lynn.


https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=744761.0

His father.

First name(s) John Charles
Last name Firmin
Age 48
Birth year 1868
Service number 41774
Regiment Royal Defence Corps
Unit / Battalion 59th Protection Company
Year 1916
Residence town Great Yarmouth
Residence county Norfolk
Residence country England
Series WO 363
Series description Wo 363 - First World War Service Records 'Burnt Documents'

Wife: Mrs Margaret Firmin, 5 Dolphin Yard, Oak Street, Norwich.


EDIT More military records for his father.

Silver War Badge Roll 1914-1920


First name(s) John Charles
Last name Firmin
Service number SS/14673
Rank Private
Badge number 88627
Enlistment date 14-Aug-1915
Discharge date 05-May-1916
Regiment/unit Army Service Corps.
Cause of discharge Sickness. Para. 392 (xvi)
Badge date of issue 11-Dec-1916
Record set Silver War Badge Roll 1914-1920



Britain, Campaign, Gallantry & Long Service Medals & Awards

First name(s) John Charles
Last name Firmin
Year 1914-20
Service number SS/14673, 417740
Second service number 417740
Rank Private,Private
Second rank Private
Regiment Army Service Corps, Royal Defence Corps
Second corps Royal Defence Corps
Service record Soldier Number: SS/14673, Rank: Private, Corps: Army Service Corps
Second service record Soldier Number: 417740, Rank: Private, Corps: Royal Defence Corps
Image link http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D2227058
Country Great Britain
Medal type British Army Medal Index Cards, 1914-1920
Archive reference WO372/7

Parent's marriage.

Marriages Dec 1902 (>99%)
>>Brunton Margaret Mitford 4b 706
Farman Robert Mitford 4b 706
>>Firman John Mitford 4b 706
Smith Ellen Catherine A Mitford 4b 706

His mother in 1911.

1911 Census For England & Wales
1 Adcock Square, East Dereham, Norfolk, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Edward Brunton Head Married Male 57 1854 Labourer Dereham Nfk
Margaret Brunton Wife Married Female 49 1862 - Dereham Nfk
Eliza Brunton Daughter Single Female 29 1882 Home Dereham Nfk
Margaret Firmin Daughter Married Female 27 1884 At Home Dereham Nfk
Edward Brunton Grandson - Male 14 1897 School Toftwood Nfk
Florence Brunton Granddaughter - Female 12 1899 School Toftwood Nfk
Margaret Brunton Granddaughter - Female 10 1901 School Toftwood Nfk
William Firmin Stepson - Male 3 1908 - Dereham Nfk


His siblings.

FIRMIN, ALEC JOHN EDWIN BRUNTON
GRO Reference: 1903 S Quarter in MITFORD Volume 04B Page 258

FIRMIN, WILLIAM HENRY BRUNTON
GRO Reference: 1908 M Quarter in MITFORD Volume 04B Page 252

??? FURMAN, HENRY GEORGE BRUNTON
GRO Reference: 1919 D Quarter in MITFORD Volume 04B Page 431

??? FARMAN, GEORGE FREDERICK BRUNTON
GRO Reference: 1921 D Quarter in MITFORD Volume 04B Page 392

??? FARMAN, FLORENCE GLADYS BRUNTON
GRO Reference: 1924 D Quarter in MITFORD Volume 04B Page 349


Not finding a birth for John Charles though.


and deaths

FIRMIN, ALEC JOHN EDWIN 0
GRO Reference: 1904 M Quarter in MITFORD Volume 04B Page 195

??
John Charles Firmin
in the U.S., Border Crossings from Canada to U.S., 1895-1960
Name: John Charles Firmin
Gender: Male
Race/Nationality: English
Age: 23
Record Type: Cards
Birth Date: abt 1915
Birth Place: Chatham Kent, England
Arrival Date: 22 Feb 1938
Port of Arrival: Buffalo, New York, USA
Record has photo?: No




HOWEVER -

Patricia give YOB as 1914, not 1915.

Several trees on Ancestry (pinch of salt) say John Charles Firmin (5 Feb 2014 Chatham)'s mother was Daisy Ann Potter 1883-1964, and that he emigrated to Canada in 1929, married and had children, and died 13 Aug 1982 in Semans, Saskatchewan.



John Charles Fiin
in the Canada, Arriving Passengers Lists, 1865-1935
Name: John Charles Fiin
[John Charles Firmin]
Gender: Male
Arrival Age: 16
Birth Year: abt 1913
Birth Country: England
Departure Port: Liverpool, England
Arrival Date: 8 Aug 1929
Arrival Port: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Vessel: Duchess of York

Occupation: golf links assistant
going to:
Mother, remarried: Daisy A Truman, 20 Kew (?) Street, Exmouth.


There are photos of his gravestone:

Rev J C Firmin
1914-1982
The Best Man in the World

This is Daisy Ann's first marriage, per the trees. Potter turns out to be a middle name, not her surname.:

Marriages Dec 1908 (>99%)
DANSON Daisy Ann P Elham 2a 2373
HADFIELD Albert William Elham 2a 2373

Three children:
Albert William 1910, Arthur George 1913, Rhodesia D 1911.

Daisy's 2nd marriage:

Marriages Sep 1927 (>99%)
Hadfield Daisy A P Truman St.Thomas 5b 129
Truman Charles Hadfield St.Thomas 5b 129

However, I don't see John's birth with any surname and mmn Danson.
Maybe he was born with a completely different name and adopted by the Firmins ???
But there's still no birth with mmn Danson in Kent 1914-15, apart from Albert George Hadfield as above.

Or maybe the trees are wrong.
One tree (possibly more) says that his father was John C Firmin and his mother Daisy


Daisy's birth:

Births Mar 1883 (>99%)
DANSON Daisy Ann P Dover 2a 1014

John Charles Firmin
in the New Brunswick, Canada, Marriages, 1789-1950
Name: John Charles Firmin
Gender: Male
Age: 26
Birth Date: abt 1914
Marriage Date: 11 May 1940
Marriage Place: Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada
Father: John C Firmin <<<<<<<<<<<
Mother: Daisy A Danson <<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse: Mabel Lydia Murray
Certificate Number: 18499

I should have added more info.
Here is my problem.
Dad referred to is mother as Daisy Ann Potter. He never indicated Danson as a surname as shown on the marriage certificate to my mother Mabel Murray. I know the Army papers show dad as the child of John Firmin and Margaret Brunton.
Daisy Ann Potter was a domestic according to my dad . She worked and at one time he was put in a boy's school. He sung in a church of England choir. I have no names of places. All I know is he said he was born in Chatham. NOw to add to the mystery before Daisy died my sister had exchanged a few letters with Daisy but no info was exchanged but that shows that she was our Grandmother. Since Margaret did not produce a birth certificate I wonder if his name will show on your next census. That should be published by next year shouldn't it.
So I want to track him from birth until he came to Canada but have only hit "brick walls". What is your impression of all this?? Thanks Pat

Daisy's birth from GRO site showing full name:

DANSON, DAISY ANN POTTER mmn POTTER
GRO Reference: 1883 M Quarter in DOVER Volume 02A Page 1014

Her parents' marriage:

Marriages Dec 1873 (>99%)
DANSON William Dover 2a 1605
Potter Fanny Harriet Dover 2a 1605

Her father had died before 1901, and Daisy was assisting her mother in her grocery shop.


Fanny Danson
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Fanny Danson
Age: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Dover, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Dover
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary the Virgin
Town: Dover
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Registration District: Dover
Sub-registration District: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 01
Neighbors:
Piece: 841
Folio: 20
Page Number: 31
Household Schedule Number: 200
Household Members:
Name Age
Fanny Danson 49
Daisy Danson 18
Edward Stratton 52 - boarder


Her mother's death:

Fanny Harriet Danson
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name: Fanny Harriet Danson
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Registration Year: 1909
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 57
Registration District: Dover
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 808

Daisy married Albert Hadfield in 1908 (already posted) , was with him on the 1911 census, and had his children until 1913.

I suppose it's possible he kicked her out when she had John Firmin's child, and she then had to support herself as best she could until she married Charles Truman in 1927.
Maybe she stopped using her surname during that time, and just used her first three names

But as your father is mentioned in John Firmin senior's army record, which is dated 1915, he must have been with the Firmins from babyhood, which doesn't leave opportunity for him to be sleeping in stairwells with Daisy - unless perhaps the arrangement with the Firmins didn't last.

I still don't see any likely birth reg with mmn either Danson or Potter.

Yes, the 1921 census may throw up more info on him.

As he was born after 1911, there are no records possible to find him on, until he emigrated in 1929.

Thank you. Dad could have been older than a baby when he supposedly accompanied his mother. Daisy was on her own when dad was probably over 5. Dad did tell my sister several stories which makes one think that she did not have a steady income coming in. AS I said before dad mentioned a school for boys . Think they had boys schools for the poor didn't they. I think he was around 10 at that time. There were poorhouses too. When Daisy went to where Truman lived dad was with her. That is the address on the ship's manifest. Charles Truman had 3 children and of course dad as a stepson got blamed for a lot and then Truman gave Daisy an ultimatum . either Dad would go to Canada or a school for boys. so I know he was there from the time they got married until he left for Canada.
I am not sure why dad never mentioned Danson or Hadfield as his mother's name. It was only Daisy Ann Potter. Jsut wish I could put it all together to make some sense.
Thanks again. PAtricia

Did you notice in the 1911 Census that Margaret Firmin 27 was living with her parents.. But that one letter to the Army from Margaret was 1915. This all adds to the mystery.

I don't see John senior in 1911 .

So Margaret may have been living with her parents temporarily while he was away wherever he was.
A census only shows the situation on the one night of the census.

The letter from Margaret declaring John junior to be John senior's son seems to imply that they didn't have a birth certificate to prove his relationship.

It's strange that the son William 1908 isn't also mentioned on John's army record..
William didn't die until 1977.

The other son Alec John had died in 1904.

Daisy's marriage notice.

MARRIAGES. HATFIELD—DANSON.—October 11th, at St. John's Church, Folkestone, Daisy Ann Potter, youngest daughter of Mrs. Danson and the late William Danson, 41, York Street, Dover, to Albert Hatfield.

Dover Express 16 October 1908



1911 Census For England & Wales
The Yard Cottage Darlington Street Folkestone, Folkestone, Kent, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Albert William Hadfield Head Married Male 33 1878 Porter Kent Cheriton
Daisy Ann Potter Hadfield Wife Married Female 29 1882 - Kent Dover
Albert William Hadfield Son - Male 1 1910 - Kent Folkestone

Correct name seems to be HaDfield not HaTfield as in the newspaper item.



1939 Register

20 New Street, Exmouth, Exmouth U.D., Devon, England

Year of death: 1964
Truman household
(2 people)
First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Charlie Truman 16 Mar 1874 Male Carpenter Retired Married 58 1
Daisy A P Truman 05 Feb 1884 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 58 2

Thanks. Truman had children from first marriage. I found that somewhere. I will try to find it again. A friend sent me a picture several years ago when she was visiting of the gravestones from the cemetery of Charles and of Daisy. Amazingly they are not the same stone but he checked with the church records and they are buried in separate places. His stone has a place as well as the plot for another person but no one else is buried there. Just sharing!

1911 Census For England & Wales
20 New St Exmouth, Withycombe Raleigh, Devon, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Charlie Truman Head Married Male 37 1874 Carpenter Whycombe
Kate Truman Wife Married Female 37 1874 - Woodbury
Gladys Truman Daughter Single Female 14 1897 - Whycombe
Willie Truman Son - Male 9 1902 School Whycombe
Vera Truman Daughter - Female 6 1905 School Whycombe
Stewart Truman Son - Male 3 1908 School Whycombe
Eva Truman Daughter - Female 1 1910 - Whycombe




TRUMAN, DORA SANSOM
GRO Reference: 1894 J Quarter in ST THOMAS Volume 05B Page 39

TRUMAN, RALPH SANSOM SANSOM
GRO Reference: 1895 J Quarter in ST THOMAS Volume 05B Page 39

TRUMAN, GLADYS SANSOM
GRO Reference: 1896 D Quarter in ST THOMAS Volume 05B Page 35

TRUMAN, FLORENCE SANSOM
GRO Reference: 1900 M Quarter in ST THOMAS Volume 05B Page 32

TRUMAN, WILLIE CLAUDE SANSOM
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in ST THOMAS Volume 05B Page 34

TRUMAN, VERA ANNIE SANSOM
GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in ST THOMAS Volume 05B Page 29

TRUMAN, STEWART RALPH SANSOM
GRO Reference: 1907 D Quarter in ST THOMAS Volume 05B Page 28

TRUMAN, EVA FRANCES SANSOM
GRO Reference: 1910 J Quarter in ST THOMAS Volume 05B Page 29


DEATHS

TRUMAN, RALPH SANSOM 0
GRO Reference: 1895 D Quarter in ST THOMAS Volume 05B Page 25

TRUMAN, FLORENCE 0
GRO Reference: 1900 M Quarter in ST THOMAS Volume 05B Page 35



Charles Truman, Newstreet, was fined 10s inclusive for making use of obscene language towards his wife. Previous convictions were proved.
13 August 1909 - Exeter and Plymouth Gazette - Exeter, Devon, England


A few reports over the years of him being fined for being drunk and abusive to his first wife and other people.

Sounds like he was a nasty man. My youngest sister wrote to Daisy when she was about 12 . That would be 2 years before Daisy died. My suspicion about the gravestones is that Daisy did not get along with stepkids so they were not having her in the same grave. Her stone is a clay pot with no name on it . My friend found that out for me from the records. Charles stone is a normal one with his name on it but indicates room for another name. Thanks for all you do.

Regarding some of the info on ancestry and my father's parents . The names were given by him to me when my first was born . No one has been ever able to find them . Talking to a genealogist here she said sometimes when young boys came over they would fabricate names so they would be like everyone else. There is a Firmin family tree but that was done by a friend of my step sister.
Others I know have copied mine. Since then I have found Daisy Ann Potter DANSON on his marriage certificate . SO with all this info I am going to change the names I first entered. Those are : Dinny Mc Grath Potter /Naomi Jezebel as Daisy's parents and Elizabeth Steward /John C Firmin as John's parents. For years I have tried to trace those he gave but with no avail. You can see why I have been reaching out for help.