Genealogy Chat

Hi all, I am at a loss. I am trying to find my Granddad's family.
His wedding cert shows he was "Frank" Smith and he married Gertrude Hayhurst in 1920 in Hyde Cheshire. He was 22 years old, living in Denton Lancashire, working as a Hat Leather Dresser and his dad was called John Smith and he was Brewer's drayman. These are the only "facts" I have.
From memory, I believe he was born in Blackburn or Bolton and his mother may have been called Elizabeth, he had lied about his age in order to go and have "An Adventure" in the first world war.

I am unsure if he kept the lie going when he came back to lessen the age gap between him and Gurtrude. She was born in 1894.
I am unsure if "Frank" is short for Francis. I am even unsure about where he was born!
However I have trawled the 1901 and 1911 Censuses and found several possibles. My question is, given the few facts I have, how can I check which family is the right one?

Thank you for your time in reading this far and for any help you can give!
Colin Parry
My tip? DON'T be born into a family of Smiths and Parrys!! ;-)

I am not sure you can without factual information.

I have one like this on my tree and have searched for 12 years but still no closer.

Thanks Pam, (I think, hahaa) I was afraid someone was going to say that.
Hope you find yours!
Colin

I think 22 is correct. If he lied about his age in 1914, then he was presumably under 18 at the time and born after 1896. This would make him 24 in 1920 and nearer Gertrude's age of 26, which he could have said if he really wanted to lessen the age gap.

Frank could also be short for Franklin, or a name in its own right.

Thank's Andysmum. I think 22 is right too. I think he had just turned 15 when the war started . The story goes he got found out after 6 months in France was shipped home, he re-enlisted and was back in France within weeks.

Franklin! Mmmm, never thought of that! Thank you
Colin

Assuming he's Frank and has no middle name, there is one born in Bolton and a couple in Blackburn in 1898. Sending for certificates would confirm it from his father's name, but with Smith it could turn out very expenive!!

Yes, I think you're right.

hi colin
have you looked for the occupation in the census for this john smith
lorraine

Hi Lorraine,
I have not found a John Smith who was a drayman. I have found weavers, and Labourer in iron works. But it was not unusual for people to change trades especially over 20 years. 'Tis a puzzle
Thank you for the suggestion though!
Colin

Who were the witnesses at Frank's wedding?
Perhaps the names will help to link him to the correct family.

Gwyn

this is only a suggestion to narrow it down

birth

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1898
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
SMITH Frank Blackburn Northern Blackburn MCMAHON BN/47/65

marriage

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1897
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
SMITH John MCMAHON Elizabeth Blackburn Register Office or Registrar Attended Blackburn RM/128/172

it seems to be the only one I can find where the mmn matches a birth and assuming his mothers name was Elizabeth

is there anything on the cgwc site for his war records?

To Lancashire Anne And Gwyn in Kent:--
Thank you for your suggestions and sorry for slow reply,
I can't find any connections between Frank and the witnesses (apart from one of them being his sister in law (Gertrude's sister, May) Bernard Kelly, the other witness is a complete stranger.

I am now 99% convinced that Elizabeth was his mum. Today I looked up Frank's grave on the Tameside MBC website and lo, there is Frank, Gerty and an Elizabeth Smith died aged 73 in 1948. She is (Literally) old enough to be his mother! John is not there though so I dont know what happened to him.


I have no Idea how to look on the Lancashire BDM I will look it up on Google! Thank you!

These could very well be the chaps, "Registrar attended" is possibly a RC wedding I believe (?) Gertrude converted to RC to marry Frank as her family were Quakers

Ladies you are stars! Lancashire Ann, I live in the Calder Valley I am not too far from Todmorden so if you need anything looking up ........
Thanks again
Colin

Colin this is the address for lancsbmd site:

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/index.php

You might also find this site useful (Lancs online Parish Clerks) although it may not have many Quaker or Catholic records:

www.lan-opc.org.uk

Thank you Potty, I have found the Lancashire site and I've made a note of the other.


Glad tidings! Using the info you have all provided I have found in the 1901 Census,
Living at 78 Peter St Blackburn
John Smith 27 Brewery Assistant Born in Liverpool (?) (That's a new one!)
Elizabeth 25 Blackburn Lancs
Then there as a name scrubbed out, Looks like Hannah and dau in the relationship bit is also scratched out.
But Frank, son, 3, born in Blackburn is written above it!

I think this is my best hope so far so I am going to send off for the certs and hang the expense lol

Thank you ALL again for your help.
Colin

thanks for that offer of Todmorden Colin

I will keep that in mind for the future. I have not done much on that side of the family recently as I have been working more on the Liverpool side

if you have any idea where that marriage in 1837 might have taken place I could have a look in the registers in the record office as RC registers often contain extra family information which is not recorded on a certificate

edit

the only RC church which has registers for that period in the LRO is St Anne - but you never know you may be lucky

Same family in 1911 (minus father):
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1905
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
SMITH Violet Theresa Blackburn Northern Blackburn MCMAHON BN/70/34

1911 census transcription details for: 1 Sack Street Dukinfield
RG14PN24409 RG78PN1400 RD468 SD7 ED7 SN11
Reg. District: Ashton under Lyne
Sub District: Dukinfield
Parish: Dukinfield
Enum. District: 7
Address: 1 Sack Street Dukinfield
HYSLOP, William Head Married M 35 1876 Labourer Brick Yard Pendleton Lancs
SMITH, Elizabeth Housekeeper Widow F 35 1876 Winder Cotton Mill Blackburn Lancs
SMITH, Frank Lodger M 13 1898 Warehouse Cotton Mill Blackburn Lancs
SMITH, Violet Thresa Lodger F 6 1905 School Blackburn Lancs
SMITH, Sydney Hyslop Lodger M 0 (3 MONTHS) 1911 Dukinfield Cheshire


Maureen

Your welcome Ann :-) I will give the LRO a go

Hello Maureen! I think you have helped me with another lose end ages ago
!
I had found Hyslop too Not noticed Violet though (My old eyes hahaa)

I've never heard of Violet but then there is so much I don't know. Sydney rings a bell but I can't think what his story was. I will look to see if William made a honest woman of my GG randma! lol
Thank you again
Colin

possible death for Violet

Deaths Sep 1917 (>99%)
Smith Violet T 12 Chorlton 8c 694

If it does turn out to be the right family there is a possible marriage below and the 1891 census appears to tie up with Elizabeth's age and birth place given following her marriage - Edit - Apologies - Lancashire Ann posted the marriage previously

Marriages Mar 1897 (>99%)
COOPER John William Blackburn 8e 582
>>McMahon Elizabeth Blackburn 8e 582
Parker Susannah Maud I Blackburn 8e 582
>>Smith John Blackburn 8e 582

1891
Name: Elizabeth McMahon
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: James McMahon
Gender: Female
Where born: Blackburn, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Blackburn
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael
Town: Blackburn
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Blackburn
Sub-registration district: Blackburn Northern
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3395
Folio: 108
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
James McMahon 36
Silvester McMahon 16
Elizabeth McMahon 15
Joseph McMahon 13
James T McMahon 8
Francis McMahon 5