Genealogy Chat

Can anybody help here. Charlotte Venus Rowland (Formally Bonapate)This is the name that my grandmother used. She was resident in Derby, Derbyshire uk on the 1911 census, living at 140 Brook Street Derby registering the birth of my mother in 1907 as Charlotte Eleanor Rowland. The 1911 census record also declares her (Charlotte V ) being born in Leicester, (My Mums Father being Thomas Rowland). In 1910 she remarried to a James Burke and is shown then in the 1911 census as Charlotte Burke. James Burke had previously been married to a Mahala Burke (née Kelly) and had had a daughter ( Carla). I think she, the now Charlotte Burke, died approx 1915, leaving my mother to be cared for by her then stepfather James Burke at the age of approx 8. I cannot find any other information anywhere. We believe Charlotte Venus Bonapate was born in Leicester but can find no knowledge of this. We cannot find a marriage to Thomas Rowland who was alive when my mother was born but deceased when my mother married in1931 Any help would be gratefully received.

Welcome to the boards, Spotts.


For our reference:


Charlotte Burke
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Charlotte Burke
Age in 1911: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Leicester, England
Civil Parish: Derby
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Street address: 45 Brook St Derby
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Confectioner
Registration district: Derby
Registration District Number: 435
Sub-registration district: Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Piece: 20881
Household Members:
Name Age
James Burke 38
Charlotte Burke 32
Ellen Rowland 4

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
45 Brook Street Derby, Derby, Derbyshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
James Burke Head Married Male 38 1873 Derby Paper Stainer
Charlotte Burke Wife Married Female 32 1879 Leicester Confectioner
Ellen Rowland Stepdaughter - Female 4 1907 Derby -

Original shows married 1 year, no children born to the marriage

Again for ref:

ROWLAND, CHARLOTTE ELEANOR mms BONAPATE
GRO Reference: 1907 M Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 609

England & Wales marriages 1837-2005 Transcription

First name(s) JAMES
Last name BURKE
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1910
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ JAMES BURKE married one of these people
Mary E Brookes, Charlotte Rowland
District Derby
District number -
County Derbyshire
Country England
Volume 7B
Volume as transcribed 7B
Page number 1214

--------------------------
Derbyshire Registrars Marriage Index Transcription

First name(s) James
Last name Burke
Marriage year 1910
Parish Register Office
Place Derby
Spouse's first name Charlotte
Spouse's last name Rowland
Reference DU/85/052
Register Office 394
County Derbyshire
Country England

From FreeBMD:


Marriages Sep 1910 (>99%)

Beswick Charles Derby 7b 1214
Brookes Mary E Derby 7b 1214 Scan available - click to view
Burke James Derby 7b 1214 Scan available - click to view
Rowland Charlotte Derby 7b 1214

There is a Charlotte Venus born 1879 - but not in Leicester.

Births Dec 1879 (>99%)
Forster Charlotte Venus S. Shields 10a 672


But she married William Robert Berry in 1906, and died in 1932 in South Shields - so not her.

Inputting Bonapate as a surname for any census shows no results England and Wales, nor in Scotland. There are no results for bmd's either.

Does the marriage cert give her father's name?

Is this the death you think is hers?

Deaths Sep 1914 (>99%)
Burke Charlotte 39 Derby 7b 601

That would make her YOB 1875 - but who knows whether that's more correct than 1879?!
It still doesn't help us to find her.

PMs from Spotts:

Yep, we cannot find her in Leicester,but bless her that's what she put on Charlotte birth certificate. And why can we not find her marriage to Thomas Rowland ....why can we not find Thomas


Would be good to find out more about Thomas Rowland who I think is her husband my G’Dad



Spotts -

When you want to reply to a question asked on this thread, or to add something more, please type it in the white box at the end of the thread (where it says "Add your reply"), and click "Submit".
Then everyone helping can see what you say.
If you reply to us individually, as you have been doing, only that person gets the message, and then we have to copy it here.


It may be that Charlotte and Thomas were never married - although she did marry James as Rowland, not Bonapate..

Presumably Thomas is shown on your mother's birth certificate.

What is his given occupation?

How do you know that he was alive then?

Charlotte Eleanor Rowland dad Thomas (deceased) a Painter married 1931.

Maryb

But saying a father was deceased on a marriage certificate doesn't always mean that he was ............... it can mean that an assumption has been made, or the child has been told that he was dead.

In Charlotte E's case, she was probably told her mother was a widow, and that was why she was able to marry Mr Burke. It doesn't mean it was true! The person conducting a marriage ceremony did not ask for proof of marital status!


Thomas Rowland could have been alive in 1931, without Charlotte Eleanor's knowledge.


Similarly, if Charlotte V was living common-law with Thomas, she could give the surname of the child as Rowland, her maiden name as Bonaparte, and the father's name as Thomas ........ he did not have to be at the Registry Office registering the birth. Births had to be registered by the mother within 6 weeks of the birth, or by someone else if the mother was unable to attend.

Unless Thomas's name is given as the person providing the information, then you cannot assume that he was alive, or even around at the time.

Just because he's a painter - not because there's any particular reason to think this is the right man -


Thomas Rowland
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Thomas Rowland
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Father: Edward Rowland
Mother: Catherin Rowland
Birth Place: Ireland
Civil Parish: Toxteth Park
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Baptist
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: Toxteth Park
Sub-registration district: Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 032
Neighbors:
Piece: 3430
Folio: 139
Page Number: 16
Household schedule number: 94
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Rowland 54
Catherin Rowland 59
Thomas Rowland 22 - painter


Charlotte & Thomas could have come from anywhere. The fact that Charlotte was in Derby from 1907 onwards, doesn't necessarily mean she was there before that.





T Rowland
in the 1911 England Census
Name: T Rowland
Age in 1911: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation to Head: Patient
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Cork, Ireland
Civil Parish: Whittingham
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Painter <<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration district: Preston
Registration District Number: 476
Sub-registration district: Broughton
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Piece: 25366


Thomas Rice Rowland
in the Ireland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911
Name: Thomas Rice Rowland
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 13 Sep 1878
Birth Place: Cork, Cork, Ireland
Father: Edw. G. Rowland
Mother: Catherine Oxton Rowland
FHL Film Number: 256019


But there are other Thomas Rowlands who are painters - most are married, and none are in Derby.

Charlotte's baptism....

Name: Charlotte Eleanor Rowland
Baptism Date: 6 Feb 1907
Baptism Place: Derby, St John, Derbyshire, England

Father: Thomas ..............painter
Mother: Charlotte

Address 140 Brook Street

Maybe another connection??

James Burke and his 1st wife Mahala had a daughter Clara Ann 1896 she married George William Cockerham 1915 she died 1915 and he remarried 1916 to Henrietta Rowland (Hetty he died 8/5/1918.


Maryb.

I would have thought that Bonaparte was a more likely name, although there's no record for that, either.

You really need her marriage cert - just to see if she named a father.

There's no record of a Charlotte Venus with any surname being born in Leicester

Nothing in Ireland either - had a wild thought that maybe the enumerator misheard Leinster!

Thank you everyone for your input.

Baptism Derby 1907 ..Paige 119 No. 949:-
Charlotte Elenor. Parents Thomas & Charlotte 140 Brook Street Derby . Painter

Thomas Rowland (House Painter ) is on Charlotte Eleanor birth certificate

Charlotte Eleanor marriage certicate Fathers Name Thomas Rowland (deceased) Painter.

When we get a clue about Charlotte Bonapate she refers to coming from Leciester

Some talk she was a Foundling ........not sure where this came from.

Charlotte Eleanor (Potts). Left Burkes home about 14 years of age and lived with a friend ....then various lodgings until she married.

Burke daughter left home and went to live with her uncle.....about 14.....and lived with the family till she got married.

Believe we have Burke death certificate.......died in hospital Sept 1951

Waiting for James Burke and Charlotte marriage certificate hope it gives us some sort of clue
So many scenarios......so little clues