General Chat

But science only says it can't work and won't continue to investigate any comments that disagree with their findings.

People who have found whatever treatment or therapy they use does work for them accept that............they are open-minded despite the so-called evidence to the contrary.

Science can't answer every question................can it?

Well I think what Pink was saying before was: not everything is proven yet.
What's scientific fact now will have moved on in 10 years so who knows what they'll come up with by then.
Nip back in time to the 1940's/50's and tell a man that smoking is bad for you.
It wasn't proven until the 70's that it can kill you.

But science has already found the answer! It is there - the tests have been done, peer reviewed, double blind, papers published, lectures given, the whole lot......the answer is there!

It is a placebo. There is no need to look any further, the answer has been found,

Why is there a need to investigate any further.....?There is absolutely no evidence to say that anything else may be the cause!

The analogy might be....let us investigate why a match burns. We have done the tests and know it is because a chemical reaction causes heat etc etc. But we had better look to see if it is actually a supernatural event and that we were mistaken :-)

I tihnk the smoking isn't too good an analogy. I think it has always been known that there is a link between lung cancer and smoking - but tobacco was a boom industry then and as we know, big businesses run governments etc.

I find it most interesting the way people are prepared to accept science on one hand but dismiss it on the other. Personally, I would prefer to be treated by a scientifically tested procedure rather than rely on faith in sometihng working for an unknown reason.

It gets back to the old argument - if you were diagnosed with a potentially fatal illness, would you use holistic treatment or would you use accepted scientifically tested treatment? In which would you put your trust.....?

I know which I would!

Eldrick....................*sighs*................tests papers lectures etc won't convince me that some therapies work for reasons we don't yet know.

Science screams placebo and so we give up do we?

Or do we continue to wonder why the "placebo" works so well for some people and not others.

If it truly is mind over matter...............maybe science can explain how that works so we can all be trained and save the NHS a fortune:))

Kitty - the very nature of a placebo is that it works for some and not for others! That is what placebos do!

It's not my place nor intention to convince you or anyone else of anything.

As I keep saying, I find the reasons behind believing these things interesting - it matters not a jot to me who believes what......forget magnets for a sec....go back to homeopathy...

How someone can take that leap of faith to imagine that something diluted to the extent that there is no chance of a sinlge molecule of the substance actually remaining.....and then to imagine it can cure anything......it requires a suspension of all common sense! But the question is....do people actually KNOW this when they are taking these things - or do they just think they are taking a concoction of st johns wort in an unkown strength?

Do they know the history of homeopathy and that it was 'invented' in an age when doctors more often than not killed their patients by blood letting, administering arsenic and other poisons, etc....? When homeopathy killed fewer people than the doctors, of course it became popular!

But why do placebos work for some and not for others?

I know nothing about homeopathy, so can't comment on it other than to say if people swear it works for them, what's the harm in it?

My brain hurts now................it's worked very hard today you know:))

Help me out here somebody................anybody!?!?! LOL

One of the first things I said was that I know it works for some people......and that is great, I applaud it, excellent, fantastic, etc :-)

It is the process behind that working that interests me....because there can be no basis in science for it to work, yet it does....so what is the answer?

The answer is placebo....in other words, a persons belief. It will work for some and not others because of the varying strengths of belief and desire for it to work.

But it cant't - and doesn't - work because of blocked up this that or the other being harmonised by magnetic forces. Science has shown that has no basis in fact! It works through belief - and that is great! Excellent! If anyone gets a cure or relief, brilliant!

Now I could be really annoying and say prove scientifically that belief makes the placebo work or I won't accept it..........................but I wont't.

I will just go with my experience of my magnetic bracelet........and hope scientists will find a cure for cancer and Alzheimers before wasting any more time and effort looking for answers to things that don't really matter.:)))

Good discussion Eldrick...........I enjoyed it, be back later:))

Actually, it's a valid point - thats why the tests - for any drug - are double blind and repeatable. And randomised.

So it's as sure as they can be that the common factor in the placebo effect is belief.

So sure, in fact, that they don't need to look for anything else. Like the man said - if it swims, has feathers, quacks and is called Donald, it's probably a duck and theres no point in trying to say it's a horse :-)

(Yes, I know - if it was Donald it would be a drake, but lets not get too pedantic, eh?)

No it hasn't always been know ..some Doctors actually recommended smoking in the 40's and 50's to calm nerves. Maybe it did too because after all someone medical told them it would work so they believed them.

Then there was this marvelous new drug in the 1960's given to women suffering from morning sickness in pregnancy....Thalidomide. They were told it's perfectly safe!

Science isn't always perfect

Hi Carrie. Sorry to hear that - this is when these beliefs get dangerous.

The homeopaths and other quacks are supposed to tell you to consult mainstream medicine and use them only as a supplement - that is part of their code of conduct.

DD - I am not saying science is perfect - I am saying that it should not be discarded for some woo belief in things that your own common sense tell you cannot possibly be true!

Thalidomide was yet another example of big money drug companies trying to make even more....it was inadequately researched before being released. The science was there to test it, but it wasnt used. It was a failure not of science, but of process and business. Incidentally, it is still used to treat leprosy.

Everyone seems to be missing the point - so I will make it again. Science has shown that the claims made for magnetic therapy - ie aligning water molecules etc. are not true. It is not a case of MAY not be true - it has been tested and demonstrably holds no credence at all. It is quite simply not true! It is a testable claim and it has failed. But there is no doubt that the things work for some people.

It is down to the placebo effect - tried, tested, etc. Why look for any other reason? To what purpose?

Sits next to Carrie ...

I don't think anyone discards science but if you have an ailment that science is unable to cure then you look around for an alternative.
Who cares if it claims to come from a one legged big eared alien from the next galaxy or it's down to the placebo effect?? If it helps you carry on taking it/using it.

hi carrie, hayley ~~~
found this on wilki;
Magnet therapy, magnetic therapy, magnetotherapy or magnotherapy is a complementary and alternative medicine practice involving the use of static magnetic fields. Practitioners claim that subjecting certain parts of the body to magnetostatic fields produced by permanent magnets has beneficial health effects. Magnet therapy is considered pseudoscientific due to both physical and biological implausibility, as well as a lack of any established effect on health or healing.[1][2] Hemoglobin is weakly diamagnetic, and is repulsed by magnetic fields. The magnets used are many orders of magnitude too weak to have any measurable effect on blood flow.[3]

i roughly understand it, ...lol, xx

DD, thats pretty much what Im saying. Indeed, who cares where it comes from.

As I say, it is the reason for the belief that interests me....purely academically. I couldnt care less if someone uses powdered unicorn horn...if it works because they believe it will work, brilliant!

carrie..bung a metal bangle on your wrist (with magnets in it) and it might cure your arthritis or help with blood flow ...thats all it really means lol

Eldrick
In pure desperation I have tried alternative stuff because everyone including family members state 'this is wonderful you should try it' but Ive noticed that they are all saying it about different things and that includes perscribed stuff.
I'll let you know if I ever find anything that works for longer than two weeks. What works for one isn't for all.

Bit of a random " off topic" thought here but I wonder................if a room full of scientists where watching Peter Pan..........would any of them clap when Tinker Bell dies ?

thats a bit too abstract for me, Amanda!