General Chat

Thanks so much Janey I did see it so I do know exactly what I am talking about by the way why are you targeting me?..I have made a general comment nothing more nothing less ....Cynthia how true lol

Now Col, you know what we women are like when we get chatting......'briefly' just doesn't come into it!!

Janey, thank you for the anecdotes - a rich tapestry of life indeed :)

And just think, Staffordshire Col -- you didn't even get to see the original voluminous contribution (showing now as a deletion on page 1) in which Christina went on at considerable length all about "us" and "them" and ... well, I'm sure you can imagine. If you PM me, I'll be happy to send you a copy. Then at least you'd be sure you knew what you were talking about.

Louise, I think you're being simplistic, as I tried to point out in reply to your PM.

You wanted to quote me as an atheist who is fond of Christmas, and that really is not what I said.

I have no objection to Christmas. I object to activities celebrating Christmas *as a religious festival* that are organized/presented by public institutions, such as schools, local governments and the like.

Many individuals and families, like mine, celebrate "Christmas" as a winter festival and opportunity for family togetherness. In fact, that is what many of the traditions now associated with Christmas - lights, trees, feasting, gift-giving - really are: traditions that have nothing to do with Christianity.

If public institutions want to "celebrate" in that way, it should be inclusive and not religious. (Businesses may do what they wish, just as individuals may.) But of course, that way lies offended Christians, and I can understand being offended at having one's religious holiday's name used for another purpose.

If people act in good will, if institutions are careful not to give official recognition to any religious celebration, things can be worked out.

Good will. Now where have I heard that before ...

''I'm writing an article on whether Christmas has a future. I know Jews, Pagans and some Christians choose not to celebrate. If that's you could you tell me briefly why and what do you do instead. What view do you have on schools having to ban nativity, non religious cards, no decorations in some shops because it may be offensive to other faiths.
Thanks''

Lol lots of 'opinions' but one thing is certain some folk dont seem to understand the meaning of 'briefly' as requested in your original post or indeed the main question you asked

As one lady put it I wish I hadn't stirred up this hornets nest.
Thank you to those who have shared their experiences. There doesn't seem to be any objection to Christmas!
Lets enjoy what's left of the summer before we worry too much about Christmas.

Louise

Cynthia, re my grampa - funny story. ;)

He died, oh, 30 years ago. Stroke left him in nursing home but lucid, second stroke left him miserable and helpless and we all wished it had been the end.

Our family was United Church of Canada, a 1920s amalgam of Methodist, Presbyterian and a smaller sect or two, that has long been about the most "liberal" Christian church in the world (1960s ecumenism, early ordaining of women, and then gay men/lesbians from 1988, activism in favour of same-sex marriage rights, activism in peace, justice and development causes ...).

During grampa's two years in the nursing home (an RC institution, actually, luck of the draw when he needed admission, all publicly funded of course), he was often visited by two chaplains - a Mennonite church music director and an RC nun who sang hymns with him. When my mum organized his funeral - in his home church, many people there, but with a newish minister who had not known him well - she had the Mennonite music guy and the nun co-officiate the service with the local minister. With all our blessings, as it were.

As to all our family religious/non-religious bents, it wasn't something anybody would have thought of talking about much, really. We all got together for Christmas and ate turkey. My father had no religion, and neither of my grandmothers were particularly interested. (We held no funeral for any of the three, just semi-formal family/friends gatherings in memoriam - at one of which a lesbian ex-UCC minister who'd known my grandparents as a child said a few words as a guest. At my father's, my brother and I did a reading of Hu's On First.) They were certainly tremendously proud of all their grandkids, and I would modestly say especially my parents' four, atheists all.

Me, I was confirmed a couple of years precociously at 13 (our Minister, a former Baptist, was a little perturbed by my rejection of the idea of hell, but allowed as how it should be okay since he had a missionary friend who said the same thing). And I taught Sunday School from around then until I was about 15, when the realization of reality started to set in.

Anyhow, the funny story. When my grandmother died, my mum had to go through all the stuff of 45 years in their little house. In one of my grandfather's desk drawers was a postcard I had sent from summer church camp (the only kind of camp we could afford) when I was about 11.

I had no memory of it, but he'd kept it there for nearly 30 years. It reported that camp was nice, but there was a little bit too much praying for my taste.

Apparently he'd got a huge kick out of that. ;)

My grandfather believed in treating people well, and he would have been incapable of doing anything that hurt anyone. And that's what mattered to him in others.

Terry, I do not know where all the things associated with Christmas came from or why, with the exception of the decorated Christmas Tree indoors.I believe it was Prince Albert who introduced it to England. He had been decorating an indoors Christmas tree from being a child in Germany. However, I do not know how it was introduced to Germany.
As regards Christmas shopping, it is a tad too early for me, as much as I like it and enjoy it. I do much of my Christmas shopping in the Garden Centres that I use all year round for plants etc. When they start getting in their 'fancy goods', I know it is time to make a start. There is no sign of this yet, nor will be for about another couple of months. Still some life in the plant business yet.
Julia in Derbyshire

Soon be time for Christmas shopping!!! LOLOLOL. Wooo I cant wait, might even start today pmsl.

Main stream churches do but a large minority of Christians do not. For myself I really dont care if I'm with people who celebrate I do. But going to church I will even though there is nothing in the Bible that says you must.
I long ago did a course in theology out of idle interest, yes there is a point to celebrating the birth of Jesus, but I still wondering where Santa Clause, and Rednosed reindeer, Xmas trees etc, elves at the North pole etc have to do with it
I try not to use Google after it gave into the Chinese Authorities, there are plenty of other search engines.
As for the deliting they were there last night but not this morning and I hadn't touched anything they had seemingly been removed by the fairies, they were not abusive or acussive, simply factual but put the main points back in a reposting. This is an interesting discussion

Oh I really cant do with all these religions
But DO respect the rights of people who do practice their own faith however
I just celebrate Christmas as a holliday and family get -together
I think that we are getting too pc these days in all areas

"Religious pluralism is a set of religious world views that hold that one's religion is not the sole and exclusive source of truth, and thus recognizes that some level of truth and value exists in other religions. As such, religious pluralism goes beyond religious tolerance, which is the condition of peaceful existence between adherents of different religions or religious denominations."

there, I knew there was a 'label' for me somewhere! :))

Hi Terry, only you or the GR administrators can delete anything you have have posted - and they only usually delete for abusive reasons. Maybe you clicked on the wrong button by mistake.

By the way, you will find that all mainstream churches celebrate Christmas (no matter the date) and, may I gently suggest that you google Incarnation (Christian) which has an explanation you may find helpful.

Now, I really MUST go to church.

Just throwing the little I know in the mix...I watched a very interesting programme about Jewish Divorce last week and the ramifications of civil marriage as regards the children.

" In Jewish law, it is the husband's right to decide whether he will give his wife a divorce, called a Get.
If he refuses her, the wife may be sentenced to years of living in a dead marriage.
She cannot remarry in the Orthodox Jewish way, and any child she has from a new relationship is considered illegitimate. In Hebrew, she is called an Agunah: a 'chained woman'.

Personally I see nothng wrong in nativity plays in schools.... anymore than I see anything wrong in a child learning about any other religions ( or none ) that may be relevant to the children in those schools or elsewhere ...all that is needed is 'balance', not 'avoidance' . How else are we to choose what we wish to believe if we are not exposed to all options?

I like Christmas anyway :)

Seems we have someone who does not like the truth, two of my replies seem to have been deleted! Shock horror! Early Christians did not celebrate Christmas! There is no mention of Christmas in the Bible so the Puritan Christians in Cromwells time saw its celebration as an ungodly act. The New Model Army went round the streets of London flogging folk for what they regarded as an unchristly act of celebrating Christmas.
There is a large minority of Christians who do not celebrate Christmas, and they have been in the UK since the time of the reformation. (Perhaps before if we look at the Lollards in the Midlands) As for the 25 th well many celebrate on the 24th or in January
Christmas has more to do with which church you belong to than being Christian.

Janey, to diffuse the situation somewhat, I noticed near the beginning of this thread you mentioned your Grandfather ... ' one of the finest Christian gentlemen, and loveliest church soloists, you would ever want to meet.' I do wonder how he felt about your decision to become an atheist. Was he quite magnanimous about it or was he saddened?


You must excuse me now as I am off to church where we have an inspired choirmaster leading a very fine choir and they are regularly invited to sing in the cathedral. There are several excellent soloists so I shall think of your grandfather whilst listening to them.


We are a very active Anglican church with many young families regularly attending so, hopefully, others will be inspired to carry on the tradition of wonderful church music.







Add

Oh, lordy.

SueM:

"I also know an Orthodox Jewish woman will NOT be able to remarry without her get."

That is not what you said, you know??? What you said was:

"Jewish wives not being able to get a divorce because the husband will not issue a get."

But the answer is the same in both cases.

An Orthodox Jewish woman MAY get a CIVIL divorce without a get, and MAY remarry CIVILLY as long as she has a CIVIL DIVORCE. That is the same treatment as anyone else in the society gets. Why would you be concerned about what her religion dictates she do?

The fact is that in Canada and at least some US states, the court will refuse to hear anything from a husband who does not remove religious barriers to remarriage, because of the sheer unfairness to a woman denied a get, at a point in her life when her options are virtually non-existent without it.


"A funeral pyre in Stepney is not a human sacrifice and I didn't say it was."

I really would have believed you capable of reasoning by analogy.

My point was that there are aspects of religious practice that it is perfectly justified, in a modern liberal democracy, for the state to regulate. Human sacrifice is the OBVIOUS EXAMPLE. It is a religious practice, it is outlawed for excellent public policy reasons. An obvious example on the other end would be that the state would have no justification whatsoever for prohibiting the wearing of religious jewelry in public. And then there is everything in between.

IF there are good public policy reasons against allowing funeral pyres -- and not just prejudice against the practices of people with funny coloured skin and funny accents -- then well and good. I've actually read some about the controversy, and have to say: I just don't know.


"You are stating that Christians should not celebrate Christmas in their own way"

I'm sorry, but I really want you to stop telling me what I am stating, when I have not said what you claim I said.

You are engaging in equivocation.

I said that PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS should not celebrate religious events.

SCHOOLS are not CHRISTIANS.
CHRISTIANS are not SCHOOLS.

Christians may do whatever they please, as far as I'm concerned. As may Hindus and Muslims and Jews and Zoroastrians and atheists.

PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS may not, in a modern liberal democracy that values equality, if not diversity, elevate one religion and its adherents above another.


"It's a tradition FGS not an imposition on other faiths."

It's a PUBLIC POLICY ffs.

The fact that something is a tradition Does Not Make It Right. Denying women the vote was a tradition. Sending young children out to work in the fields was a tradition. Beating dogs and horses was a tradition. Things people had done since time immemorial. Things it was realized were not acceptable in an evolved society.


"You read exactly what you wish to in order to further your argument."

I don't even know what you mean by that. I do know that you and others keep putting words in my mouth I have never typed.


"When were you last in the UK? When were you last in a school, hospital, within the benefit system?"

You do know what an "ad hominem" argument is, right? I call it an ad locutorem argument, myself. An attack on the speaker, rather than on the argument.

Does someone need to have been a recipient of benefits in the UK to believe - to know - that discrimination is wrong?

Simple as that. Discrimination is wrong.


"I am all for diversity but integration, to a degree, MUST be encouraged to promote more tolerance on both 'sides'"

Then you might want to read up on approaches to integration.

Canada's approach -- supporting and encouraging cultural communities to maintain their own traditions, including religion and language -- is actually what is most likely to result in adhesion by members of those communities to the broad values of the broader community.

Tolerance and fairness in action breeds tolerance and fairness.

And the security of a religious community, a cultural community, gives people a footing in the broader society and a way in to that society, through that community's connections with the broader society. As long as those connections are fostered, rather than demanding that individuals abandon their natural communities.

And I assume you are talking about integration in the specific context we are discussing -- adopting and joining in the majority's religious practices and celebrations and expressions. No, that is not "integration". That is assimilation. That is requiring people to go along with things that are not their choice in matters that are purely personal and private. Religion is purely personal and private. It is simply none of anyone else's business, and it is not for anyone to demand that anyone else participate in religous practices not of their choosing.

Me, I'll just take a tolerant, fair society over a nativity play any day.

Of course I know Islam forbids interest on debts FGS, I also know an Orthodox Jewish woman will NOT be able to remarry without her get.

A funeral pyre in Stepney is not a human sacrifice and I didn't say it was.

You are stating that Christians should not celebrate Christmas in their own way, refer to my previous quote from you where you have contradicted yourself. It's a tradition FGS not an imposition on other faiths. There are about 10 Sharia law courts currently in the UK. There are countless Rabbinical hearings but these mainly question Jewish law and how to interpret it in Orthodox communities. Faith schools exist because they were funded by the church. When the state system afforded education to all why on earth should the faith be detached? Don't forget I am speaking as an agnostic and have NO evangelical drum to beat here. As for the hospital tale, you felt qualified to comment before didn't you? Where exactly have I referred to 'them'.

You read exactly what you wish to in order to further your argument.

When were you last in the UK? When were you last in a school, hospital, within the benefit system?

I am all for diversity but integration, to a degree, MUST be encouraged to promote more tolerance on both 'sides'

Janey

*I'm well aware that England has a state religion*

I think you are out of date with that one.....England 'did' have a state religion which was Church of England....but this was in the days when people cared......These days...no-one cares....well....the state doesn't that is for sure and I am afraid that the younger generation knows little about religion except to say they do not believe ( most anyway )

I agree that one should be taught all religions...at least when one argues about it one will know what one is talking about :-)))

DET - I've said every time the subject has arisen here at GR that I am very, very strongly in favour of teaching children *about* religions. All religions.

This can indeed include participatory activities, although I think there's a fine line there.

I'm well aware that England has a state religion. So does Scotland. Two different churches, and the monarch is head of them both. Hmm.

Obviously, my question is: why? Why would a nation in this century want to have a state religion? How can this possibly be justified? Forget about the newcomers, the Muslims and Hindus. Forget about the Jews who have been around forever. Consider the Unitarians and Methodists and all the rest who are perfectly good Christians, just not CofE. Not to mention all the indigenous atheists.

How is England any different from Iran, in this regard? How could any good English person criticise any other nation for its state religion, and the imposition of that religion's policies on its society?

No real Christian would have anything to do with the idea of a state religion.


Is this site being a hopeless pig tonight, or does it just not like me?