General Chat

Oh dear, my son has just arrived home from work [supermarket]and has been personally fined £80 from the police for serving a 16 year old on a spot check. The boy looked well over 18. His manager has got to go to the police station tomorrow and our son is now waiting to hear what will happen next. He was told not to go in tomorrow. The last person that served someone underage was sacked.

Devious B'stards these 'sting' operatives.......... surely if the kid looks over 18 then its down to the judgement of the checkout. what next? ask to see a bus pass? Bob

How the heck do you know how onld people are these days? Most places now operate a policy that you ID anyone under 21 (or who look under 21). The systems far from perfect but until we start tatooing DoB'd on kids foreheads we'll always have problems My brother bought 18 rated vidios and computer gates at 14/15 without getting IDed and my cousin got IDed in Kwiksave at 25 and was so inbarrised, she was luckey that the girl behind her could vouch for her by saying that they had gone to school together and she knew the sales assistent. You just can't tell these days, it seems like the only way to be sure is to ID everybody even if they are drawing a pension.

Hope it works out ok. I've never been asked my age & remember drinking beer in a pub at the tender age of 13! Angela

Trouble is that very often when (if) these things get to court they'll appear in school uniform and look years younger.

oh sh*t!

Just a suggestion make sure the store CCTV was working, in that checkout.............Bob

That's rotten Joseanne.......every year on GMTV they show kids going into shops to buy fireworks.....they are always underage, and are often served.....why is nothing done about them..... \He must be really worried, poor chap - I hope it works out for him and he only gets a warning....

Hi All I am an Off License manager and licensee. My company policy (national chain) is 'think 21' for booze and 'think 18' for cigs etc. No ID then you don't get served. We have to show due diligence etc and be able to prove staff have been trained about under-age sales. Refusals book has to be completed and ID provided log filled in. All ID has to be checked (much fake stuff can be bought openly over the net for £5), must have photo,dob and PASS logo or UK driving license/passport. Nothing else acceptable. Both my job and sales assistants are at risk. It annoys me (to put it mildly) that myself and staff are very strict and refuse many sales each week when a local convenience store regularly sells booze and fags to kids as young as 13 !!. Local Trading Standards Offices regularly do test purchases and youngsters are now allowed to lie about their age (used to have to tell the truth until about 12 months ago). They are also allowed to send youngsters in who look more than 18. Hence the 'think 21 policy'. Can be very difficult to tell someones age, especially girls at the weekend when they are dressed up at the weekend. 'It's never easy' - to coin a phrase. Libby

Libby I didn't think 'Entrapment' was allowed? Angela

Both Trading Standards and the police are allowed to do this. Not classed as entrapment - just making sure the licesing laws are adhered to - since 24 hour drinking has been allowed the powers that be are more strict. Taken off the Magistrates and given to Local Goverment - now there';s a recipe for disaster!! Libby

well I really do feel for you on this one. I used to work in a shop that sold fags and booze. I always seemed to get the friday evening shift as we opened until 11pm there was always loads of underage trying to buy stuff. We had to fill in refusal book. But why is it down to the shop assistant. It should be down to the parents allowing their children out with enouogh money to buy the stuff in the first place. I think it is totally wrong that anybody should be put into this position. Yes there should be rules about selling alcohol and tobacco but when you are on minimum wage it is a big responsibilty which is one of the reasons I left that job and work in just a food shop now. The wages should be double for the responsibilty of the job.

Sorry to hear about this. I was however just a bit surprised to hear that a fine had been imposed. It is my understanding that the case would have to go to court first, the police have no powers to impose a fine. The maximum penalty is £1,000 if the case is proven, and could apply to both employer and employee.. Your son needs to seek advice as It is a defence to prove: (a) that you believed that the person was 18 or over: and (b) either that you had taken all reasonable steps to establish the person’s age or that nobody could reasonably have suspected from his/her appearance that the person was under 18. Reasonable Steps means asking for identity, but if he did not do this, then the he could still claim that the person looked over 18. Good luck.

i really feel for your son. i am too a check out operator and the pressure to enforce the task 21 (think, ask, see and know the law) causes alsorts of stess. after each (and there a lot) refusal you have to fill in a refusal log so that if you do let one slip throught the net our company can look at your recordto back you up and say in court that in the passed ?? months you have checked and refused x amount of sales due to the persons being underage. also if they are in a group of young people you have to ask ALL of them for id not just the one purchasing it. you know very well that they will be handing it out once they get outside. the disagreements we get are unbelievable, we get called alsorts of nasty names as they stand there effing and blinding because they cant get their booze. they dont realize that we are only doing a job and at the end of the day we get a fixed on the spot fine and if it gets to court a £2000 fine, sack and the company looses its licence to sell alchohol. very often we have to call a supervisor/manager for an abusive customer. also we have to refuse to serve anyone who we think has already been drinking. that is a tough one as well. i really hate my job some days. well on that note i must go to see how many need their fix today! tina x

I have just done some more checking and it appears that the £80 is a fixed penalty notice, so hopefully it will go no further from a prosecution point of view.

Tina that is probably the worst one refusing to serve somebody already the worse for wear. The one I found strange was not serving a police officer on duty.. Surely the onus should be on the police oficer himself to adhere to the law I didnt know about if somebody is in a group you have to get id from all of them. From the other side of things my 16 year old son is sometimes out at his mates house boozing and I know that his mates older brother gets it for them.

The one about the police officer - at one time you had to refuse a police officer when not on duty but still wearing his uniform - how mad was that !! If in doubt - don't serve !! Completeley agree with the wages - staff in my company are on minimum wage and aften have to single-man at night - including locking up after 10pm, plus the responsibility of thousands of pounds worth of stock. Last year a bloke nicked over £300 worth of champers from in front of me. Thats in a NICE area of Southport !!. Libby

it really is a big responsibility and should be reflected in the wages which of course it never is as people are just happy to get a job these days. There was an incident one Sunday morning. The shop opens at 7am but not allowed to sell alcohol until later not sure if its 11am or later. But 2 blokes came in and picked up a case of lager each but was refused to be served so they said well if you wont take the money we are taking the beer any way. So they just walked out with it. 2 women on their own are not going to argue with them. Not sure what happened about it but once they are outside the shop they are gone.........

I think we should be like America No ID.... No Alcohol I am obviously well over 21 but was asked for ID in supermarkets ect everytime! Not sure if it's just some states though. Chris

Just a thought which may be a defence to the shop manager for your son. has he received adequate training? I believe the shop will also have been fined. My Grandsons work with trading standards on this. One with cigarettes and the older 16 year old (but tall) one with alcohol. It is surprising how many small shops still don't ask for ID and get caught, the larger supermarkets seem to be more on the ball with their staff training. it is a nightmare for the staff. Ann Glos