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Apologies - this is a longshot. I have a photo of an unidentified seaman (no cap, no badges etc) in my late Gran's album. So am searching for descendants of Joseph White born St Martins, Middlesex 30/4/1851 and Caroline (nee Coleman) born St Giles, Middlesex 16/10/58 who was in the Royal Navy during WW1 and interred in the Groningen Camp in Northern Holland. Can supply scan of photo if anyone thinks they may be in their tree. Thanks for any info.

For our reference -



Marriages Jun 1876 (>99%)
COLEMAN Caroline Holborn 1b 1054
White Joseph Holborn 1b 1054


Caroline White
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Caroline White
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: Joseph White
Gender: Female
Where born: St Giles, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: St Pancras
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 12 Edward St
Marital Status: Married
Registration district: Pancras
Sub registration district: Regents Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors:
Piece: 178
Folio: 65
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph White 29
Caroline White 22
Edward J. White




Caroline White
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Caroline White
Gender: Female
Age: 32
Relationship: Wife
Birth Year: 1859
Spouse: Joseph White
Child: Edward White
Arthur White
Joseph White
Birth Place: Kilburn, London, England
Civil Parish: Willesden
Residence Place: Willesden, Middlesex, England
Sub registration district: Willesden
ED, Institution or Vessel: 22b
Neighbors:
Piece: 1047
Folio: 123
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph White 39
Caroline White 32
Edward White 10
Arthur White 8
Joseph White 6



Caroline White
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Caroline White
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: Joseph White
Birth Place: London, England
Civil Parish: Willesden
Ecclesiastical parish: Kensal Rise St John
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: Hendon
Sub-registration district: Willesden
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Neighbors:
Piece: 1219
Folio: 6
Page Number: 3
Household schedule number: 22
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph White 49
Caroline White 42
Edw J White 20
Joseph T White 16
Ernest H White 9

I haven't found the family in 1911 - yet.

Ernest seems to have died 1977, so not in Groningen -

Ernest Herbert White
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Ernest Herbert White
Death Age: 85
Birth Date: 12 Mar 1892
Registration Date: Jun 1977
Registration district: Paddington
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 14
Page: 1133

Joseph T was in the US and Canada.

Canada 1910:

Joseph Thomas White
in the Ontario, Canada, Marriages, 1826-1936
Name: Joseph Thomas White
Age: 28
Birth Year: abt 1882
Marriage Date: 1 Sep 1910
Marriage Place: Wentworth, Ontario, Canada
Father: Joseph White
Mother: Caroline Coleman
Spouse: Mary Ann King


Joseph Thomas White
in the U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007
Name: Joseph Thomas White
Gender: Male
Race: White
Birth Date: 23 Aug 1884
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Father: Joseph White
Mother: Caroline Coleman
SSN: 262146879
Notes: Oct 1937: Name listed as JOSEPH THOMAS WHITE

Don't know what date this record has - the 1937 note may be a later addition. No image to look at.

Edward J -

Birth:
WHITE, EDWARD JAMES mms COLEMAN
GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 17



Edward James White
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Edward James White
Age in 1911: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: St Pancras
Civil Parish: Willesden
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address: 28 Claremont Road, W Kilburn N W
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Traveller Dyers and Cleaner
Registration district: Willesden
Registration District Number: 129
Sub-registration district: Willesden
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Household schedule number: 435
Piece: 6995
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward James White 30
Harriett Elizabeth White 35
Evelyn Margaret White 5


He was in the RAF, not the Navy:

Edward James White
in the UK, Royal Air Force Airmen Records, 1918-1940
name: Edward James White
Gender: Male
Age: 36
Birth Date: 1880
Service Date: 30 Jun 1916
Service Number: 35583
Spouse: Harriet Elizabeth White
Next of Kin: Harriet Elizabeth White
Relation to Airman: Wife

Can't see the details of the record without sub to Fold3.


He survived the war:


Edward White
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Edward White
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 17 Apr 1880
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 68
Residence Place: Willesden, Middlesex, England
Occupation: Jewell Case Makers Trav??
Schedule Number: 113
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: BXFB
Registration district: 129-2
Inferred Spouse: Harriet Elizabeth White
Inferred Children: Evelyn Margaret White
Household Members:
Name
Edward White
Harriet Elizabeth White
Evelyn Margaret White
William James White

In 1911, 135 men wth surname WHITE were recorded as being in the Royal Navy

He wasn't interRed - he was interNed. A big difference!

The Groningen Camp Magazine Website

During October 1914, over 1500 troops from the First Royal Naval Brigade were interned in
Groningen, Holland, for the duration of World War I.
During the internment, a Camp Magazine was produced, detailing the activities of those interned and ..............................


http://www.groningencamp.co.uk/

Who was your gran, please?

I'm assuming not Caroline - too old?

Why do you think the seaman might be a child of Joseph & Caroline?

The son Arthur, who appears in the 1891 census:

WHITE, ARTHUR WILLIAM mms COLEMAN
GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 44


Possibly him in 1901 ??

Arthur White
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Arthur White
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation to Head: Private
Gender: Male
Birth Place: London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Norwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Pickthorpe and St James
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Registration district: Norwich
Sub-registration district: East Wymer
ED, institution, or vessel: Cavalry Barracks
Neighbors:
Piece: 1841
Folio: 157
Page Number: 14
Household schedule number: 1


??

Arthur White
in the British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
Name: Arthur White
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1882
Enlistment Age: 35
Document Year: 1917
Residence Place: 22 Halton Road Islington
Regimental Number: 32319
Regiment Name: Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment
Number of Images: 2
Form Title: Record of Service
Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
Arthur White Self (Head)

Occupation: horse keeper.
No family members named.
Deserted 25/01/1917. "No court of Inquiry held, and no further information available."

May have died June 1919, per a later page.

But not Royal Navy, even if this is Joseph & Caroline's son.

The Catton / Battershill marriage cert might be worth buying, to see who she names as her father.

Big quandary now re Joseph Thomas White marriage in Ontario! Another GR contact who has the Whites in his tree says his great grandfather was Joseph Edward White born Kilburn, London in 1888 (son of Caroline Coleman and Joseph White, brother of Arthur William) who married Edith Elizabeth Cozens. His grandfather was Cyril Joseph William White, son of Joseph Edward and Edith. So who is Joseph Thomas White? My own grandfather, Arthur William White, was born in 1882, served in the Boer War, and survived both WW1 and WW2. There wouldn't be two sons named Joseph - would there???

NEVER take anyone else's info as being accurate until you verify it

These are the only births for Joseph Edward White in 1888+/-1yr


WHITE, JOSEPH EDWARD CRUMP Order
GRO Reference: 1887 S Quarter in BARNSLEY UNION Volume 09C Page 178 Order
WHITE, JOSEPH EDWARD PEARSON Order
GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in BARNSLEY UNION Volume 09C Page 206 Order
WHITE, JOSEPH EDWARD BAINES Order
GRO Reference: 1889 J Quarter in BRADFORD YORKSHIRE Volume 09B Page 32 Order
WHITE, JOSEPH EDWARD NORTON GOODGER Order
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in SPILSBY Volume 07A Page 569



On the other hand, THIS birth has MMN Coleman, but is in the wrong area for your family

WHITE, THOMAS HENRY COLEMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 310

There are numerous White/Coleman births, so care is essential

These, I think, are 'yours'

WHITE, ARTHUR WILLIAM COLEMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 44
WHITE, JOSEPH THOMAS COLEMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 183

Ernest Herbert White
Spouse: Annie Eliza Pargiter
Father: Joseph White
Mother: Caroline Coleman
Birth: 12/03/1892 Hendon Middlesex England
Death: 1977 London London England

A couple of baptisms

Edward James White
9 May 1880 St Pancras St James Camden Joseph,
Caroline

Arthur William White
30 Jul 1882 St Pancras Camden Joseph,
Caroline

Births of children showing on census - just to keep them together
Matches for White mmn Coleman.

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
WHITE, JOSEPH THOMAS COLEMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 183

WHITE, ERNEST HERBERT COLEMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in HENDON Volume 03A Page 169 Order

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
WHITE, EDWARD JAMES COLEMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 17

WHITE, ARTHUR WILLIAM mms COLEMAN
GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 44

The only Joseph Edward 1888 was born in Barnsley RD and if you look at Edward Joseph there was one in Hendon RD but mmn Hammond

PM from Jackie (I had asked who her grandmother was, because if the photo was in her gran's album, it must have meant something to her) -

Thank you so much for all that info, some of which I have never seen before. My Gran was Ethel May White (nee Pargiter) wife of Arthur William White. I know he was in the Army and Ernest Herbert White was in RAMC. Gran's sister emigrated to Canada and I am in contact with a descendant, but he says although he has the same pic as me, he has no knowledge of who the young man might be. I know Grandad Arthur's siblings where in the forces, so thought perhaps he was a White. Ho hum - back to the drawing board! Thank so much for all your efforts.

Ernest Herbert White and Annie Pargiter (Hendon) are definitely correct, as is Arthur William White (Pancras). The Joseph Edward White mentioned in another GR member's tree, I have in my tree as born circa 1885. I'm really getting confused here with the Josephs. I have the 1891 and 1901 censuses which I will recheck. My granddad Arthur William wasn't mentioned in the 1901 as he had already enlisted in the Army by falsifying his age.

There is no Joseph Edward listed in any of the censuses with Joseph & Caroline (all posted earlier) .

And Erika has shown there is no birth record of a Joseph Edward with mms Coleman.

Then the GR member who has Joseph Edward White in his family tree and said we were relatives was therefore incorrect! The GR member descended from White/Coleman, but as you've pointed out, there were several White/Coleman marriages. I'll have to doctor my tree.

The reason I am so interested in establishing the correct Joseph is because ArgyllGran has found an entry for Joseph Thomas White in Toronto. Two of my Gran Ethel's sisters emigrated to Canada and I am in contact with one of the sister's great grandsons. Both he and I have the same photo of the unidentified young WW1 seaman and we would love to find out where in the family he fits in. If the Joseph Thomas White is actually my White, he may be the missing link.