General Chat

I'm writing an article on whether Christmas has a future. I know Jews, Pagans and some Christians choose not to celebrate. If that's you could you tell me briefly why and what do you do instead. What view do you have on schools having to ban nativity, non religious cards, no decorations in some shops because it may be offensive to other faiths.
Thanks

I am a Christian so I do not understand a ban on nativity, I respect all our faiths what I do not understand is who is offended when I worked in a office one christmas manager came in & said not to decorate office because of offending other people with different faiths so I thought I would ask who is offended apart from us Christians no problems yes we decorated, my son worked in Saudi Arabia 2 years ago yes he worked Christmas day no bank holiday there but they had a street party to celebrate Christmas please can someone explain to me who is offended why can we not just respect each other

Hi Louise,

We always celebrated Christmas when the children were small. They really enjoyed acting in their nativity plays and singing carols.

I CANNOT understand why, in a traditionally Christian based country, it is considered non PC to display religious icons over this period. The choice of non religious cards has been around for a few decades so not a problem for people to choose.

Shops should NOT have to adjust usual practices over Christmas/Easter etc., because some busybody group have decided that it will offend those of other faiths. I cannot ever remember meeting anyone from another faith who complained. If we are a truly multi faith society then there should be room for all.

I am an agnostic and I don't object.

Sue

I actually think very few people do object, it is the perception of the PC groups that think they should object. If they left well alone there would not be half the problems there are (or they think there are if you see what I mean).

I am a Christian (aliet non practicing), but I defend my right to celebrate it, and all other festivals in the Christian calender. It is the way I was brought up. I do not mind non Christians celebrating their Holy days.
Julia in Derbyshire

Britain may or may not be a Christian country - you'll have to conduct a survey amongst a cross-section of the public to find that out - but it certainly is a captialist one.

For that reason alone, of course Christmas has a future.

When I stop being bombarded by junk mail from every commercial company known to man, from August onwards, wanting to relieve me of my money, I'll let you know.

Personally seeing Xmas advertised and goods on shelves in August gets my goat up.

By the time Xmas does come round I am fed up and wish it over before it begins.

As for the PC brigade they should be shown up for what they are. They are a blight on our society.

I'd love to meet those faceless wonders who are doing more to dilute this nation of ours to something out of George Orwell's 1984.

I, and anyone I know has never had any one of another faith objecting to our traditional way of celebrating Xmas and I've yet to meet anyone who has objected to other religions celebrating their traditions.

Aileen xxx

I honestly think a lot of this is media hype............can you tell us what schools have had to ban nativity plays and which shops have had no decorations in them please?

As for non religious Christmas cards................what a ridiculous waste of perfectly good trees!! lol

I am a practising Christian but get fed up with the hype surrounding Christmas - I get more out of Easter to be honest. I also get fed up with my faith being marginalised in case it upsets someone. Maybe it's time to stand up and be counted!!


I only send Christmas cards with a Christian theme (when I can find them) and much prefer nativity plays to some of the secular productions I've seen.


I really don't want to see Christms cards in the shops in August either!

I celebrate, I had a Christian upbringing and although I choose not to attend church now I wouldnt not celebrate. I also love the family side of things, my kids nativity plays (even if we're not allowed to take photos anymore lol), giving gifts, visiting family on Boxing day, baking biscuits, and taking my kids to see Santa. Also the beautiful artwork my daughter brings home which I can put around the house.

Sometimes the stuff here just disgusts me.

No one suggested, least of all Louise, that Christians should not be able to practise their religion.

My mouth fell open when I read:

"where I work there are many nationalities, all who celebrate their own special days without asking us if we are offended... ... & no-one yet has asked me if I mind them doing all this in our Christian country"

Who on earth do you think you are? Someone should ask you whether they may engage in their PRIVATE religious practices in "YOUR" country?

I can't imagine why anyone's private religious practices would be a matter of concern to anyone else.

If I were a theist, I would say: my god. The Jews should ask permission to "celebrate" Yom Kippur. You don't know what Yom Kippur is, do you? Do you "celebrate" Good Friday? Do you have any idea how long there have been Jews living in the British Isles? "Your" country???

The only issue is whether there should be OFFICIAL PUBLIC celebrations of religious holidays.

And I'd say that any Christian - or anyone else - who says there should be is "celebrating" something besides their religious holiday. They are celebrating their dominance over religious minorities in their society, and rubbing the minorities' faces in it.

School nativity plays? I can understand the nostalgia and the feeling of community togetherness at such events. I'm an atheist, and I'm very fond of Christmas. I like lights on snow and lighted trees in the house. We decorate our atheist house all over, inside and out. It does feel like a time of warmth and togetherness. That's one reason we leave our lights up way long past Christmas. ;)

I've even been to midnight services at a local RC church, just for the experience. Voluntarily. Nobody held services where I work, or at my local school.

If people are so devoted to their nativity plays, why can't local churches get together and put on a joint production, and invite the whole community? That way, if other members of the community want to join in their neighbours' celebration, they can do it, and be welcomed. Instead of having it imposed on them and their children in the schools.

Of course, the Christmas tradition I could live without is the family fight. ;) My family does it particularly well, but I think it's a large class and we'd have some stiff competition probably. Still, there's nothing like 8 or 10 atheists getting together - some older, some younger, some blood rellies, some out-laws, some English, some Portuguese - and mixing it up for Christmas. Oh, and the 10-yr-old who spends her school recess discussing god with her friends. ;)

We celebrate Christmas. But what we're celebrating is our family history, our social and cultural history, and a few days when we can take the time to spend time together. I think a lot of people do the same. I'm happy if we all do what we choose to do, and nobody is choosing it for us.

I cannot answer the first part of Louise's question because I do 'celebrate' Christmas in what it stands for in the Christian sense - the Coming of Christ.

The second part, however, as she has asked for our views, I feel I am entitled to answer.

It may possibly be difficult for non Christians and non residents to understand the mood which is pervading this small island at the moment.

Theoretically, we are still a 'Christian' country with a state church and with a monarch as Head of State.

Unfortunately, much of what we were taught to believe in and respect in the past, is being eroded away by poor leadership and petty bureauocracy.

This can range from community carol services being cancelled for fear of offending other faiths, to the wearing of goggles when playing conkers!

One only has to google 'cancelled for fear of offending...' to see the widespread problem.

but back to the question........

a) I don't think a school should 'have' to ban a nativity play because it may be offensive to other faiths. This is our faith.

b) As a Christian I prefer to send religious cards at this time of year. This is our faith.

c) I can't see where shop decorations can be classified as offensive to other faiths when tinsel, Christmas trees etc ., only date back to the 19th century and play no significant part in the faith aspect of Christmas.

Christians were never promised an easy time on this earth, but I, for one, am willing to stand up and be counted..........thank God for Hope!


Right, that said, I must now be away and get cracking on my work!

I have no objection to anyone celebrating any religious festival be that Yom Kippur, Channukah, Christmas, Divali, Easter...whatever, privately or publicly.

My 'religion' is my own belief and my own belief is not 'threatened by any one elses... Simple ! :))

My mother had a penpal for 40 years ( American) and every year my mother sent a 'Happy Christmas' card to her, and every year penpal sent a " Happy Holidays" card back ...30 years into it when we met in London, it came up in conversation that they were jewish...were they offended by my mother sending a Christian card ? no of course not, because the issue of 'different religions' just didn't exist .... the wishes for a happy time in each card were sincere and sent with love ...

it's the same God whatever one names ones religion isn't it (I was going to put a ? mark there but I'm not!)

Rose, xx nominally Christian but happy to celebrate anything that celebrates love and humanity and the continuance of the spirit

"Glad I never wrote THAT !"

Did you have something to say, Christina, or did you figure you had already said quite enough?

I'm sure glad I didn't write what you wrote. I'd be hanging myself from the rafters as we speak.

Just in case you want to educate yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_England

"The first written records of Jewish settlement in England date from the time of the Norman Conquest, mentioning Jews who arrived with William the Conqueror in 1066 although it is believed that there were Jews present in Great Britain since Roman times. The Jewish population lived in England from the Norman Conquest until they were expelled in 1290 by a decree of King Edward I. England had no official Jewish presence, save for isolated individuals who practised Judaism secretly, until the reign of Oliver Cromwell. ..."

And yet you said:

"even the Jews have their own Yom Kippur in October, & no-one yet has asked me if I mind them doing all this in our Christian country"

I'm sure they're grateful for your, er, tolerance.

(And should anyone be wondering -- I know the history of Jews in England. I offer the wiki article for anyone who doesn't. See how that works?)

Good grief, Christina:

"Christmas is our own religious day, it is ours as our right ...
......as it happens, I don`t mind at all, it`s up to them, just as Christmas is up to us & is nothing to do with them."

"Us", "them" -- maybe you're a Zoroastrian? :rofl:

"I have not told you my religion, yet you have decided what I know & don`t know about other faiths.!"

No, I don't *care* what your religion is or what you know about other religions. But what you have *done* is state that England (the UK, whatever) is "your" Christian country when the fact is that people of other religions have lived here for, literally, millennia.

"I have not told you who my friends are, yet you have decided that I have had no experience of their various beliefs !
I would not presume anything that personal about you"

Maybe not, but what you *have* done is make stuff up and pretend I said it.

"You quote the Nativity.....You have obviously not been subject to the withdrawing of the lovely play put on by children as Christmas approaches, to be told that "other faiths may not like it ". Why not..?. my "other faith " friends have no objections at all.Likewise, I have been to their family celebrations & enjoyed them."

Is a school a family? Or is a school a public place where everyone is entitled to be treated equally?

If you were a non-Christian, would you think it was clever, given that there are people like you in the community, to object to your children taking part in a religious expression you do not share and do not want them taught is true? Or might you think it wise to keep your own counsel and say Oh, no, we don't mind a bit!

Why do Christians want non-Christians taking part in their religious activities, anyhow? Isn't that a tad sacriligious, on both sides? Should a Muslim girl at the school play Mary? Should a Jewish boy play Joseph? (Both would probably be historically accurate, eh?)

"They are welcome to practise as they please, just don`t tell me not to practise as I please."

Let me know when the Jewish parents at your school insist on Passover dinners being organized by the school and having all children participate in them.

Nobody is telling the poor, poor, persecuted Christians not to practise their religion.

A lot of people think that all citizens of a society should behave as such *in public*, and keep their exhibitions of religiosity to themselves and to anyone who *chooses* to join them, freely and without the kind of pressure that comes from those exhibitions being organized by public institutions like schools. Count me among them.

Ah, the poor, poor persecuted Christians ...

I'd have removed those remarks long since, had they been mine. But then I would never have written them in the first place. Nor would my mother, or her father, one of the finest Christian gentlemen, and loveliest church soloists, you would ever want to meet. He would have been appalled. Utterly appalled.

My goodness and poor Louise only asked a simple question. No wonder I was taught to avoid politics and religion if I wanted to avoid conflict. This seems to have got terribly personal.

I guess if people don't want to hear opinions about their opinions, they should keep them to themselves!

I'm happy to hear opinions about my opinions.

And I find it amusing when people's only defence of their own is to make things up about someone else, fling insults and launch into a long whine.

Poor Ann in Glos. You didn't have the benefit of seeing what the discussion is actually about, did you?

I saw most of it Janey, missed the last one that was deleted, I think that is all. Not actually making a comment about what was actually said, who is/was right or wrong, just commenting that it has got very heated when Louise just wanted an opinion. Please don't feel sorry for me Lol!!!

Actually Christmas is a Pagan festival.adopted by Christians:-))
I celebrateChristmas because I just love it,end of:-))